Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

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ObJuan13
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by ObJuan13 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:35 pm

jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:25 pm
AJ was beaten by ruiz and avenged it. Vitali quit against chris byrd. To me that is inexcusable
I agree, just tryna stick somewhat close to the “accomplishments” theme... but there’s an obvious gray area that I’m having a hard time traversing

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marciano1952
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by marciano1952 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:48 pm

Robinson Quit Against Joey Maxim....Sighting Heat Exhaustion.....Does he Suffer Accomplishment wise for that?

Vitali Quit with a torn rotator cuff.....

We Saw what that same injury did to Jeff Lacy.....


We all talk big about fighting Quiting.....until something career Altering happens when they dont....
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jeff_lacy_ko
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:56 pm

Id say its case by case. He was way ahead of a light hitting puncher at home late in a fight...

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ObJuan13
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by ObJuan13 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:59 pm

marciano1952 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:48 pm
Robinson Quit Against Joey Maxim....Sighting Heat Exhaustion.....Does he Suffer Accomplishment wise for that?

Vitali Quit with a torn rotator cuff.....

We Saw what that same injury did to Jeff Lacy.....


We all talk big about fighting Quiting.....until something career Altering happens when they dont....
The ref fainted from heat exhaustion in that fight, and Robinson stepped into the ring at 157lbs for The LHW Champ fight against a top 10 all time LHW and didn’t come out in a round that Vitali has never even seen (the 13th). It was 103 degrees... and Ray Robinson is Ray Robinson...

Context matters.

And guys have fought and finished fights with torn rotator cuffs... He quit and it wasn’t a good moment, but I didn’t punish Vitali for that and placed him 4th on my list...
Last edited by ObJuan13 on Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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marciano1952
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by marciano1952 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:01 pm

jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:56 pm
Id say its case by case. He was way ahead of a light hitting puncher at home late in a fight...
Lacy went from a KO Artist to not being able to Stop a Guy like Epifanio Mendoza(KO'd 20 times) or Otis Griffin......in the prime of your career, Ask yourself....Take a Loss and fight another Day or Risk Losing your ability to throw a proper punch?....Vitali Came Back and proved it was not a lack of heart....
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jeff_lacy_ko
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:02 pm

marciano1952 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:01 pm
jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:56 pm
Id say its case by case. He was way ahead of a light hitting puncher at home late in a fight...
Lacy went from a KO Artist to not being able to Stop a Guy like Epifanio Mendoza(KO'd 20 times) or Otis Griffin......in the prime of your career, Ask yourself....Take a Loss and fight another Day or Risk Losing your ability to throw a proper punch?....Vitali Came Back and proved it was not a lack of heart....
I mean the calzaghe beating didnt help....

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marciano1952
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by marciano1952 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:04 pm

ObJuan13 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:59 pm
marciano1952 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:48 pm
Robinson Quit Against Joey Maxim....Sighting Heat Exhaustion.....Does he Suffer Accomplishment wise for that?

Vitali Quit with a torn rotator cuff.....

We Saw what that same injury did to Jeff Lacy.....


We all talk big about fighting Quiting.....until something career Altering happens when they dont....
The ref fainted from heat exhaustion in that fight, and Robinson stepped into the ring at 157lbs for The LHW Champ fight against a top 10 all time LHW and didn’t come out in a round that Vitali has never even seen (the 13th). It was 103 degrees... and Ray Robinson is Ray Robinson...

Context matters.

And guys have fought and finished fights with torn rotator cuffs... He quit and it wasn’t a good moment, but I didn’t punish Vitali for that and placed him 3rd on my list...
I wasnt necessarily responding to you....more to the "that is inexcusable" in reference to quitting in fights...

Contet Matters I Agree....thats why i brought up Lacy who suffered the Same exact Injury and Ruined him as a fighter.......I was Driving home the point with Robinson that Quitting sometimes saves a fighters career.....
“Boxing right now is dying with its superstar Muhammad Ali fighting competitors not worthy to try for his crown.”
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by marciano1952 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:05 pm

jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:02 pm
marciano1952 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:01 pm
jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:56 pm
Id say its case by case. He was way ahead of a light hitting puncher at home late in a fight...
Lacy went from a KO Artist to not being able to Stop a Guy like Epifanio Mendoza(KO'd 20 times) or Otis Griffin......in the prime of your career, Ask yourself....Take a Loss and fight another Day or Risk Losing your ability to throw a proper punch?....Vitali Came Back and proved it was not a lack of heart....
I mean the calzaghe beating didnt help....
Mendoza....KO'd 20 times.....couldnt put him away.....Id say thats more than taking a lopsided beating and his punching ability was greatly comprehended
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jeff_lacy_ko
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:07 pm

He had Mendoza hurt a few times then got countered and hurt badly. That was more to do with his punch resistance being gone.

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jeff_lacy_ko
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:10 pm

I get it you like the klitschkos but vitali lost to the best fighters he fought one by quitting. His best win is corrie sanders. Ruiz has better wins than him

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ObJuan13
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by ObJuan13 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:13 pm

marciano1952 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:04 pm
ObJuan13 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:59 pm
marciano1952 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:48 pm
Robinson Quit Against Joey Maxim....Sighting Heat Exhaustion.....Does he Suffer Accomplishment wise for that?

Vitali Quit with a torn rotator cuff.....

We Saw what that same injury did to Jeff Lacy.....


We all talk big about fighting Quiting.....until something career Altering happens when they dont....
The ref fainted from heat exhaustion in that fight, and Robinson stepped into the ring at 157lbs for The LHW Champ fight against a top 10 all time LHW and didn’t come out in a round that Vitali has never even seen (the 13th). It was 103 degrees... and Ray Robinson is Ray Robinson...

Context matters.

And guys have fought and finished fights with torn rotator cuffs... He quit and it wasn’t a good moment, but I didn’t punish Vitali for that and placed him 3rd on my list...
I wasnt necessarily responding to you....more to the "that is inexcusable" in reference to quitting in fights...

Contet Matters I Agree....thats why i brought up Lacy who suffered the Same exact Injury and Ruined him as a fighter.......I was Driving home the point with Robinson that Quitting sometimes saves a fighters career.....
I hear you, and agree in a big picture sense, but when it comes to legacy , I don’t have a problem with punishing guys for quitting... particularly in a sport like boxing where ranking fighters is such a pass time.

Hell, Robinson was up big in his fight against Maxim and if he won and became champ, I think it would have been enough to make him the unanimous GOAT, which he pretty much is now, but that would have removed all doubt... and that’s his punishment for quitting...

But to your point, Lacy was probably punished with a shortened career for his injury...

Life ain’t fair, and a fighter’s legacy takes a hit when he quits.
Last edited by ObJuan13 on Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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marciano1952
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by marciano1952 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:14 pm

I'm rather indeifferant to Vitali as compared to Wlad who iv been a super fan of.......but Wilder hasn't accomplished more and his comp isnt anywhere near as much better as it seems to have been made out to be...
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Sorry i assumed you liked vitali as well

For wins

Stiverne 1
Ortiz 1
Ortiz 2

Vs
Corrie sanders
Sam peter
Chisora

Maybe adamek is a good win. If you go 4 deep hes probably better than brezeale

He had a successful defense against fury. A draw but a successful defense

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jeff_lacy_ko
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:36 pm

I wouldnt rate guys like solis who never amounted to anything and who blew out his knee in round 1

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by Pangloss » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:46 pm

Vitali Klitschko was generally considered “undisputed” for at least a brief period in time after Lewis retired and Vitali beat Sanders. Just that places him accomplishment-wise ahead of Joshua, Wilder, Ruiz and Byrd in my book. Beyond that though he had his first WBO reign, and then his WBC reign after he came back and beat Peter.

He had nine successful defenses just there, and for a lot of that time, many people actually thought he was actually the best heavyweight in the world, not Wlad, even if not all the comp was great, although I’d happily argue that on average it was better than Wilder’s by a wide margin. For one, Peter was a better fighter and tougher out than Stiverne, and then Arreola, Johnson and Solis were all good wins better than any defenses by Wilder made for instance other than Ortiz 1 IMO, and that not by much. But even if you give Wilder the benefit of the doubt for instance and say they’re relatively even in their longer WBC reigns, Vitali has the earlier one and the WBO reign as well.

I could see Joshua or Fury eclipsing him, or even an argument for Fury having already done it with the old Wlad win and now the comeback. Joshua would need to stamp himself as clearly the best at some point to do so. Wilder’s probably SOL at this point with his age, lack of fundamentals, and the beating he just took physically and psychologically.

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by ObJuan13 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:15 pm

Pangloss wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:46 pm
Vitali Klitschko was generally considered “undisputed” for at least a brief period in time after Lewis retired and Vitali beat Sanders. Just that places him accomplishment-wise ahead of Joshua, Wilder, Ruiz and Byrd in my book. Beyond that though he had his first WBO reign, and then his WBC reign after he came back and beat Peter.

He had nine successful defenses just there, and for a lot of that time, many people actually thought he was actually the best heavyweight in the world, not Wlad, even if not all the comp was great, although I’d happily argue that on average it was better than Wilder’s by a wide margin. For one, Peter was a better fighter and tougher out than Stiverne, and then Arreola, Johnson and Solis were all good wins better than any defenses by Wilder made for instance other than Ortiz 1 IMO, and that not by much. But even if you give Wilder the benefit of the doubt for instance and say they’re relatively even in their longer WBC reigns, Vitali has the earlier one and the WBO reign as well.

I could see Joshua or Fury eclipsing him, or even an argument for Fury having already done it with the old Wlad win and now the comeback. Joshua would need to stamp himself as clearly the best at some point to do so. Wilder’s probably SOL at this point with his age, lack of fundamentals, and the beating he just took physically and psychologically.
That would be a markedly tougher task for Joshua than it was for Vitali, and really, Vitali never “did” it... understandably so as no one will fault him for not fighting his brother...

Joshua has Fury in front of him which is better than anyone Vitali ever had in front of him during his reign as the supposed best... and I had Wlad as the better fighter anyway

And Wilder can absolutely catch Vitali... his loss is better than Vitali’s Byrd loss... I don’t know if I’d bet on Wilder to do it, but if he beats Fury in the 3rd fight, he’s already there...

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:27 pm

So if you are "the man" against corrie sanders and kirk johnson that is better than being a champ and beating wlad, povetkin, whyte, ruiz... ???

No.

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by Pangloss » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:23 pm

Ancient Wlad and Povetkin, never was Whyte and one hit wonder Ruiz? Yes.

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by Pangloss » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:31 pm

ObJuan13 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:15 pm
Pangloss wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:46 pm
Vitali Klitschko was generally considered “undisputed” for at least a brief period in time after Lewis retired and Vitali beat Sanders. Just that places him accomplishment-wise ahead of Joshua, Wilder, Ruiz and Byrd in my book. Beyond that though he had his first WBO reign, and then his WBC reign after he came back and beat Peter.

He had nine successful defenses just there, and for a lot of that time, many people actually thought he was actually the best heavyweight in the world, not Wlad, even if not all the comp was great, although I’d happily argue that on average it was better than Wilder’s by a wide margin. For one, Peter was a better fighter and tougher out than Stiverne, and then Arreola, Johnson and Solis were all good wins better than any defenses by Wilder made for instance other than Ortiz 1 IMO, and that not by much. But even if you give Wilder the benefit of the doubt for instance and say they’re relatively even in their longer WBC reigns, Vitali has the earlier one and the WBO reign as well.

I could see Joshua or Fury eclipsing him, or even an argument for Fury having already done it with the old Wlad win and now the comeback. Joshua would need to stamp himself as clearly the best at some point to do so. Wilder’s probably SOL at this point with his age, lack of fundamentals, and the beating he just took physically and psychologically.
That would be a markedly tougher task for Joshua than it was for Vitali, and really, Vitali never “did” it... understandably so as no one will fault him for not fighting his brother...

Joshua has Fury in front of him which is better than anyone Vitali ever had in front of him during his reign as the supposed best... and I had Wlad as the better fighter anyway

And Wilder can absolutely catch Vitali... his loss is better than Vitali’s Byrd loss... I don’t know if I’d bet on Wilder to do it, but if he beats Fury in the 3rd fight, he’s already there...
Fair enough if Wilder beats Fury in a third go, but I think that’s highly unlikely. I did say he’s just probably out of luck, not that there’s no way. I don’t think Joshua will manage it unless maybe he sticks around long enough to be the top guy, but he’ll likely need to either beat Fury, or have Fury fall apart and depart the scene. The latter is more likely than the former. Fury could even surpass Wlad if he got really serious about his conditioning and career long term. He’s not the natural athlete Wlad was, but mentally is a far more natural fighter and has the early life-type skill development level, and the size advantage to where he could keep going for a long time with dedication.

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:31 pm

By your logic Hasim Rahman > Ken Norton

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:34 pm

Pangloss wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:23 pm
Ancient Wlad and Povetkin, never was Whyte and one hit wonder Ruiz? Yes.
I take it you're referring to AJ?

Wlad and Povetkin both fought AJ with quite a bit of gusto
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:25 pm

Was vitali ever unified? A lot of stock put i corrie sanders and danny williams, another journeyman, for that first title reign.

If Ruiz is a one hit wonder what do you call sanders?

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by marciano1952 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:03 pm

jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:34 pm
Sorry i assumed you liked vitali as well

For wins

Stiverne 1
Ortiz 1
Ortiz 2

Vs
Corrie sanders
Sam peter
Chisora

Maybe adamek is a good win. If you go 4 deep hes probably better than brezeale

He had a successful defense against fury. A draw but a successful defense
Thats pretty much it....Wilder's Resume is 2 deep.....After that it Falls Apart....and What has Ortiz Accomplished Really?

Vitali At lest Has Adamek, Gomez(another Long Reigning Champion at Cruiser), Arreola(Prime not Shot), Hide(2 Time Title Holder) to fall back on....
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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by Pangloss » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:47 pm

jeff_lacy_ko wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:31 pm
By your logic Hasim Rahman > Ken Norton
Norton’s very overrated. 1970s John Ruiz.

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Re: Rank their accomplishments (heavyweights)

Post by jeff_lacy_ko » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:50 pm

Eh wbo before it counted is like saying ibo title holder. I wouldnt consider hyde better than anyone wilder has beaten
Arreola was a hype job but i do credit him with killing that seth mitchell nonsense.


I think its debatable. I dont think joshua is debatable he has beat better fighters than vitali and if you call ruiz a 1 hit wonder like stench disld than corrie sanders is a 1 hit wonder too

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