Floyd’s ability as a fighter is under appreciated

[Bertel1]

In the big scheme of things, I am not sure beating Hatton at 140 would have enhanced Floyd's legacy. Hatton came up to 147 to beat the man and lost. Hatton was an undefeated Super Lightweight King who went up 7 pounds to fight a fighter that started his career at 130. It is not like Hatton was going up to 147 to fight a career welterweight like Trinidad or something. If the argument is beating Hatton at 140 would have enhanced Floyd's legacy, it might have just been a smidgen. All anyone remembers is Floyd gave an undefeated, future hall of fame fighter, his first loss in dramatic fashion.

The fact Hatton beating KT and Floyd beating Gatti 3 weeks apart from each other, the stage was set for them to fight at 140. Floyd chose to go up to 147 though. And beating the guy at the top of the division can only help. It's not like Hatton came along at 140 after Floyd left.

I agree with all of that and agree that it could have helped his legacy by beating Hatton at 140, but overall only slightly. Floyd and Hatton are a similar size and it was not like Floyd had a huge advantage just because the fight was at 147. IMO, it was not like Hatton had a big disadvantage because the fight was at 147. The ability not to drain so much might have actually helped a bit. IMO, beating Hatton at 140 instead of 147 registers as such a low addition to Floyd's legacy, it really shouldn't even be brought up. Floyd missing out on fighting strong welters like Margarito when he had the chance, Manny at an earlier stage of career (after he fought cotto), getting in the ring with Paul Williams, fighting Shane earlier in his career. Those are fights that if happened at the different time, would have enhanced Floyd's legacy a lot more.

Beating an undefeated Hatton at 147 over 140? Barely registers IMO.

________


I think youve hit the nail on the head. Mayweathers standout wins @ 147 are Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, and a 135 lb Juan Marquez. While 147 was on an popping that is.

[Bulldog]

I think youve hit the nail on the head. Mayweathers standout wins @ 147 are Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, and a 135 lb Juan Marquez. While 147 was on an popping that is.

So now we got a 135 JMM who actually weighed 148, about the same weight he weighed KOing Manny, if you follow their fight weights throughout their careers Manny JMM and Floyd are within a few pounds fight night all the way from 130 to 147 weigh-ins, their fight night weight stays within about 5lb all the way through 4 divisions.

I cant get my head around how you fellas refer to weight in boxing, its like a very flippant area because of the wide latitude a weight-class has built into it, and that 10-20 pounds difference is swept under the carpet in fan talk to support an agenda, you guys need to understand the difference in weigh-in weight vs fight weight, a dried out guy sounds little at 135 and when he fights at 148 he is not so little, they are all jumping weight classes now but their fight night weights rarely change much at all, the bottom line for a fighter is do we dry out to make a lower class or we dont dry out which can mean a jump off 2 weight classes on paper and little change in the fighter.

The 30hr weigh-in is so open to manipulation it is a window that can give a guy like say Hurd a massive advantage, I would love same day weigh-in it would rearrange the entire range a fighter fights in across all of boxing except HW, everybody would move North 1-2 weight classes, if it was same day weigh-in there would be very little jumping of weight classes certainly not like it is atm. I will bet that Garcia as an example is not more than few pounds heavier fighting Errol than he was fighting Easter or Broner, unless you bulk up like a bodybuilder a fighter is not going to change much at all.

Some interesting listings here .
http://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2 ... on_22.html

[Bertel1]

I think youve hit the nail on the head. Mayweathers standout wins @ 147 are Judah, Baldomir, Hatton, and a 135 lb Juan Marquez. While 147 was on an popping that is.

So now we got a 135 JMM who actually weighed 148, about the same weight he weighed KOing Manny, if you follow their fight weights throughout their careers Manny JMM and Floyd are within a few pounds fight night all the way from 130 to 147 weigh-ins, their fight night weight stays within about 5lb all the way through 4 divisions.

I cant get my head around how you fellas refer to weight in boxing, its like a very flippant area because of the wide latitude a weight-class has built into it, and that 10-20 pounds difference is swept under the carpet in fan talk to support an agenda, you guys need to understand the difference in weigh-in weight vs fight weight, a dried out guy sounds little at 135 and when he fights at 148 he is not so little, they are all jumping weight classes now but their fight night weights rarely change much at all, the bottom line for a fighter is do we dry out to make a lower class or we dont dry out which can mean a jump off 2 weight classes on paper and little change in the fighter.

The 30hr weigh-in is so open to manipulation it is a window that can give a guy like say Hurd a massive advantage, I would love same day weigh-in it would rearrange the entire range a fighter fights in across all of boxing except HW, everybody would move North 1-2 weight classes, if it was same day weigh-in there would be very little jumping of weight classes certainly not like it is atm. I will bet that Garcia as an example is not more than few pounds heavier fighting Errol than he was fighting Easter or Broner, unless you bulk up like a bodybuilder a fighter is not going to change much at all.

Some interesting listings here .
http://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2 ... on_22.html

_____


You are one of the few who seems to feel as if weightclasses are irrelevant. If im not mistaken, Marquez had only had ONE fight at 135 at the time of the Mayweather bout.

[elterrible]

What Floyd had Marquez do was criminal. Worse than Spence fighting Mikey Garcia at 147.

[Bulldog]

_____


You are one of the few who seems to feel as if weightclasses are irrelevant. If im not mistaken, Marques had only had ONE fight at 135 at the time of the Mayweather bout.

It actually is on face value its really just a label with a 4-7lb variable that then converts to 10-20lb swing for the real fight, the fight night weight is where the battle is fought not on the scales, thats so the match can be classified and recorded, why they dont make an official fight night weight is a lot to do with the controversy it would create with fans as it would highlight to the media some extreme advantages that are in fights because of the 30hr weigh-in. Its a Pandora box if you open you mind.

Weight classes are only for our classification system they are irrelevant to the " actual combat " unless a guy is drained to make this pre weight then it will effect the outcome of the fight, if he drys out and rises again with no ill effect on his body nothing has changed other than he is no longer in the weight class you guys hang onto like a security blanket, and ironically hang onto it to asses the merit of the fight, wtf is that lol, its pure fan stuff that would not hold water in a discussion between fighters and trainers concerning a fight, fans are conditioned to what the media spoon feed them, this is the stuff under the hood in boxing that effects wining and losing fights, fans gloss over it because they dont get it how important it is.

Ask yourself what does a weight class signify to the fight, what does it mean too the battle in 30 hrs that will not be at that weight, its nothing but a category that fits with mans way of order and is not telling you their real size, they do not fight there, think about that , Im telling you fight night weight is vastly more important than the 30 hr weigh-in and no top trainer would think otherwise.

You said 135 JMM what does that really signify to the actual battle, tell me what it means and how it effects the outcome of the fight, be specific yeah and dont forget he weighed 148 in the fight, it sound good to say 135 and 147 if you wanna bash or praise but its not real weight, I dont understand how you fellas cannot see that you champion a weight they dont fight at, its just crazy to me but I do understand you gotta have some hands on to know it.

[lurkyshaka]

Leave it fellas, he absolutely CANNOT bring himself be truthful/critical of Floyd in anyway.

[Bertel1]

_____


You are one of the few who seems to feel as if weightclasses are irrelevant. If im not mistaken, Marques had only had ONE fight at 135 at the time of the Mayweather bout.

It actually is on face value its really just a label with a 4-7lb variable that then converts to 10-20lb swing for the real fight, the fight night weight is where the battle is fought not on the scales, thats so the match can be classified and recorded, why they dont make an official fight night weight is a lot to do with the controversy it would create with fans as it would highlight to the media some extreme advantages that are in fights because of the 30hr weigh-in. Its a Pandora box if you open you mind.

Weight classes are only for our classification system they are irrelevant to the " actual combat " unless a guy is drained to make this pre weight then it will effect the outcome of the fight, if he drys out and rises again with no ill effect on his body nothing has changed other than he is no longer in the weight class you guys hang onto like a security blanket, and ironically hang onto it to asses the merit of the fight, wtf is that lol, its pure fan stuff that would not hold water in a discussion between fighters and trainers concerning a fight, fans are conditioned to what the media spoon feed them, this is the stuff under the hood in boxing that effects wining and losing fights, fans gloss over it because they dont get it how important it is.

Ask yourself what does a weight class signify to the fight, what does it mean too the battle in 30 hrs that will not be at that weight, its nothing but a category that fits with mans way of order and is not telling you their real size, they do not fight there, think about that , Im telling you fight night weight is vastly more important than the 30 hr weigh-in and no top trainer would think otherwise.

You said 135 JMM what does that really signify to the actual battle, tell me what it means and how it effects the outcome of the fight, be specific yeah and dont forget he weighed 148 in the fight, it sound good to say 135 and 147 if you wanna bash or praise but its not real weight, I dont understand how you fellas cannot see that you champion a weight they dont fight at, its just crazy to me but I do understand you gotta have some hands on to know it.

______

If the weightclasses are meaningless , there would be none using that logic. Im fine agreeing to disagree. Fact being there were better suited opponents in the actual 147 division in 2009. No need to select a Lightweight only to cheat the guy on the scales after signing for a catchweight.

[Bertel1]

Leave it fellas, he absolutely CANNOT bring himself be truthful/critical of Floyd in anyway.

___

By the Power of Grayskull?!! Geez

[Bulldog]

Leave it fellas, he absolutely CANNOT bring himself be truthful/critical of Floyd in anyway.

Off course Lurky because you were dead wrong in your original comment and like the other girl cant man up and say so, so then you come with the classes are irrelevant BS, which Ive explained 20 different ways.

Floyd beat Hatton at his best fighting weight, that was the debate and you lost suck it up sunshine.

[TheSickness316]

Leave it fellas, he absolutely CANNOT bring himself be truthful/critical of Floyd in anyway.

Off course Lurky because you were dead wrong in your original comment and like the other girl cant man up and say so, so then you come with the classes are irrelevant BS, which Ive explained 20 different ways.

Floyd beat Hatton at his best fighting weight, that was the debate and you lost suck it up sunshine.

Keep backpedaling. How are those answers to my Cotto questions coming? If you're a man you would answer those. But as is your way you run and hide for any question that you think answering would make Floyd look bad.

[Bulldog]

It the weightclasses are meaningless , there would be none using that logic. Im fine agreeing to disagree. Fact being there were better suited opponents in the actually 147 division in 2009. No need to select a Lightweight only to cheat the guy on the scales after signing for a catchweight.

Man you are missing the entire point of weigh-in weight and fighting weight and what it means to the fight, it went over you like a boeing 747.

[Bulldog]

Leave it fellas, he absolutely CANNOT bring himself be truthful/critical of Floyd in anyway.

Off course Lurky because you were dead wrong in your original comment and like the other girl cant man up and say so, so then you come with the classes are irrelevant BS, which Ive explained 20 different ways.

Floyd beat Hatton at his best fighting weight, that was the debate and you lost suck it up sunshine.

Keep backpedaling. How are those answers to my Cotto questions coming? If you're a man you would answer those. But as is your way you run and hide for any question that you think answering would make Floyd look bad.

I told you already start a thread and we will play questions, turn for turn, lol Ive put 20 questions to and you cant answer one and you go on about something irrelevant to the debate, go start a thread .

[TheSickness316]

I told you already start a thread and we will play questions, turn for turn, lol Ive put 20 questions to and you cant answer one and you go on about something irrelevant to the debate, go start a thread .

Why do you need a thread? Why don't you answer them here? The questions were asked HERE. I've answered every question you ask. I don't run from them like you.

[Bulldog]

I told you already start a thread and we will play questions, turn for turn, lol Ive put 20 questions to and you cant answer one and you go on about something irrelevant to the debate, go start a thread .

Why do you need a thread? Why don't you answer them here? The questions were asked HERE. I've answered every question you ask. I don't run from them like you.

Because we will go a lot further and this thread has already been confusing as you and Lurky deflect the real debate " DID FLOYD BEAT THE BEST HATTON "

Where is your answer to what Ricky stated in his book, your answer jumped right over it like a goat over the fence and there is the problem, its not an answer its your deflection dont confuse the two.

[gilgamesh]

I told you already start a thread and we will play questions, turn for turn, lol Ive put 20 questions to and you cant answer one and you go on about something irrelevant to the debate, go start a thread .

Why do you need a thread? Why don't you answer them here? The questions were asked HERE. I've answered every question you ask. I don't run from them like you.

Because we will go a lot further and this thread has already been confusing as you and Lurky deflect the real debate " DID FLOYD BEAT THE BEST HATTON "

Where is your answer to what Ricky stated in his book, your answer jumped right over it like a goat over the fence and there is the problem, its not an answer its your deflection dont confuse the two.

I haven't gotten in on this previously, but...did Floyd beat the best Hatton? Yes

If Hatton wasn't in his best form at 147 because it wasn't his best fighting weight, well...I mean he started at 140 and Floyd started at 130. Ricky's the naturally bigger man. So somehow Floyd was better off jumping up 17 pounds than Ricky was jumping up 7?

Ricky just wasn't good enough. That's all there is to it.

[TheSickness316]

I told you already start a thread and we will play questions, turn for turn, lol Ive put 20 questions to and you cant answer one and you go on about something irrelevant to the debate, go start a thread .

Why do you need a thread? Why don't you answer them here? The questions were asked HERE. I've answered every question you ask. I don't run from them like you.

Because we will go a lot further and this thread has already been confusing as you and Lurky deflect the real debate " DID FLOYD BEAT THE BEST HATTON "

Where is your answer to what Ricky stated in his book, your answer jumped right over it like a goat over the fence and there is the problem, its not an answer its your deflection dont confuse the two.

My answer has never jumped anywhere. You just say that because you know all I have said was fighting at 140 and beating Hatton there would have done more in terms of his legacy. I never said Floyd won because of the weight.

[Bulldog]

My answer has never jumped anywhere. You just say that because you know all I have said was fighting at 140 and beating Hatton there would have done more in terms of his legacy. I never said Floyd won because of the weight.

I answered that comment, I said that was your opinion and you are allowed it, I said Im not going to debate or argue an opinion that is a mute point.

I will debate a fact, proof hard coded facts backed up with numbers statements from the source etc etc, I will never give in on FACT that I know and can prove as I have done here, this thread ended when I proved Lurky wrong many pages back , it only went this far because he turned out to be a girl that cannot admit when he is wrong so he started harping on a opinion comment to lose the fact and focus of the real debate. And as I said to you early you jumped on his bandwagon to flame me and keep coming with more BS on top of more BS that is irrelevant to the debate, its Simple Simon stuff whats happened here, bitches that cant admit they were wrong trying to complicate and confuse the original debate.

Take a look at the last few posts on page 8. Then look at Lurkys answer on this page, thats the biggest duck bitch move in the entire thread.

[TheSickness316]

My answer has never jumped anywhere. You just say that because you know all I have said was fighting at 140 and beating Hatton there would have done more in terms of his legacy. I never said Floyd won because of the weight.

I answered that comment, I said that was your opinion and you are allowed it, I said Im not going to debate or argue an opinion that is a mute point.

I will debate a fact, proof hard coded facts backed up with numbers statements from the source etc etc, I will never give in on FACT that I know and can prove as I have done here, this thread ended when I proved Lurky wrong many pages back , it only went this far because he turned out to be a girl that cannot admit when he is wrong so he started harping on a opinion comment to lose the fact and focus of the real debate. And as I said to you early you jumped on his bandwagon to flame me and keep coming with more BS on top of more BS that is irrelevant to the debate, its Simple Simon stuff whats happened here, bitches that cant admit they were wrong trying to complicate and confuse the original debate.

Take a look at the last few posts on page 8. Then look at Lurkys answer on this page, thats the biggest duck bitch move in the entire thread.

Did I ever say you were wrong when you took that screenshot? Did I?

And you say you answered it, you knew how I felt, but then you want to say I deflected. I never deflected because my stance was always the same. My stance was and has been that fighting Hatton at the 140 pound division would have done more. But because you post that screenshot, and I didn't praise what you said because you posting doesn't do anything to change my opinion, you want to say I'm deflecting.

[Bulldog]

My answer has never jumped anywhere. You just say that because you know all I have said was fighting at 140 and beating Hatton there would have done more in terms of his legacy. I never said Floyd won because of the weight.

I answered that comment, I said that was your opinion and you are allowed it, I said Im not going to debate or argue an opinion that is a mute point.

I will debate a fact, proof hard coded facts backed up with numbers statements from the source etc etc, I will never give in on FACT that I know and can prove as I have done here, this thread ended when I proved Lurky wrong many pages back , it only went this far because he turned out to be a girl that cannot admit when he is wrong so he started harping on a opinion comment to lose the fact and focus of the real debate. And as I said to you early you jumped on his bandwagon to flame me and keep coming with more BS on top of more BS that is irrelevant to the debate, its Simple Simon stuff whats happened here, bitches that cant admit they were wrong trying to complicate and confuse the original debate.

Take a look at the last few posts on page 8. Then look at Lurkys answer on this page, thats the biggest duck bitch move in the entire thread.

Did I ever say you were wrong when you took that screenshot? Did I?

And you say you answered it, you knew how I felt, but then you want to say I deflected. I never deflected because my stance was always the same. My stance was and has been that fighting Hatton at the 140 pound division would have done more. But because you post that screenshot, and I didn't praise what you said because you posting doesn't do anything to change my opinion, you want to say I'm deflecting.

You didnt say I was right lol and you knew I was, see thats a glimpse at your character, how stand up you are, your dislike of me stopped you and that little snippet tells me a lot about you.

Lurky is the biggest curve ball in the thread, and you rode with him to flame me thats why youre here, too argue opinion . Start a thread on CWs and lets see how you go there lots of facts and figures in that subject that you wont be able to deal with, you would rather argue Everlast vs Grant gloves type BS, you argue fan BS and ignore the fight game 101, you are like a punter arguing with the trainer of the horse about something you know nothing about.

[TheSickness316]

You didnt say I was right lol and you knew I was, see thats a glimpse at your character, how stand up you are, your dislike of me stopped you and that little snippet tells me a lot about you.

Lurky is the biggest curve ball in the thread, and you rode with him to flame me thats why youre here, too argue opinion . Start a thread on CWs and lets see how you go there lots of facts and figures in that subject that you wont be able to deal with, you would rather argue Everlast vs Grant gloves type BS, you argue fan BS and ignore the fight game 101, you are like a punter arguing with the trainer of the horse about something you know nothing about.

You shouldn't really talk about someone's character. You believe I have an actual mental illness and you try to make fun of me for it. You're trying to make fun of something for having a mental illness that you believe they have. I'm not saying this to argue, but if we're going to mention someone's character, you shouldn't go down that road.

And you bringing up Hatton's fight night weight does nothing for what I said because my whole point was legacy would have been better for Floyd if the fight happened at 140. You have this thought that saying he was 153 at fight night is supposed to change my thinking. It doesn't. The only way that would is if I thought the reason Floyd won was because he fought at 147. But I never questioned that.

[Bulldog]

You didnt say I was right lol and you knew I was, see thats a glimpse at your character, how stand up you are, your dislike of me stopped you and that little snippet tells me a lot about you.

Lurky is the biggest curve ball in the thread, and you rode with him to flame me thats why youre here, too argue opinion . Start a thread on CWs and lets see how you go there lots of facts and figures in that subject that you wont be able to deal with, you would rather argue Everlast vs Grant gloves type BS, you argue fan BS and ignore the fight game 101, you are like a punter arguing with the trainer of the horse about something you know nothing about.

You shouldn't really talk about someone's character. You believe I have an actual mental illness and you try to make fun of me for it. You're trying to make fun of something for having a mental illness that you believe they have. I'm not saying this to argue, but if we're going to mention someone's character, you shouldn't go down that road.

And you bringing up Hatton's fight night weight does nothing for what I said because my whole point was legacy would have been better for Floyd if the fight happened at 140. You have this thought that saying he was 153 at fight night is supposed to change my thinking. It doesn't. The only way that would is if I thought the reason Floyd won was because he fought at 147. But I never questioned that.

Character traits come in many forms based on the genetic clusters grouping together to express the tendency, to see them takes an expression or reaction to a specific then you can pin point the character trait behind the reaction, you are defining character like you define boxing where you want to throw a blanket over big clumps without being very specific. Saying to you I think you are off in the head is totally different than someone failing to admit somebody was right or wrong once proof is established, Im being real telling you want I think, and I will be real when Im proving wrong, I never mind in being wrong on a fact because it means Ive learned something.

Im not into arguing opinion its an endless loop of nothing, argue a fact and I will never give in when Im right, one day you will figure that out, if you start a thread on CWs you will see opinion vs fact in action, this 30hr weigh-in that fans embrace is such smoke and mirrors to the real fight.

As I said lurky is the curve ball, you only came in to flame me by choosing to ride with him, now he lets you be Crusader Rabbit while he sneaks of out the back door, the last few posts page 8 and his response on page 9 says it all.

[KiNg_DaDdY_2o9]

Lol

9 pages of nonsense.

[TheSickness316]

You didnt say I was right lol and you knew I was, see thats a glimpse at your character, how stand up you are, your dislike of me stopped you and that little snippet tells me a lot about you.

Lurky is the biggest curve ball in the thread, and you rode with him to flame me thats why youre here, too argue opinion . Start a thread on CWs and lets see how you go there lots of facts and figures in that subject that you wont be able to deal with, you would rather argue Everlast vs Grant gloves type BS, you argue fan BS and ignore the fight game 101, you are like a punter arguing with the trainer of the horse about something you know nothing about.

You shouldn't really talk about someone's character. You believe I have an actual mental illness and you try to make fun of me for it. You're trying to make fun of something for having a mental illness that you believe they have. I'm not saying this to argue, but if we're going to mention someone's character, you shouldn't go down that road.

And you bringing up Hatton's fight night weight does nothing for what I said because my whole point was legacy would have been better for Floyd if the fight happened at 140. You have this thought that saying he was 153 at fight night is supposed to change my thinking. It doesn't. The only way that would is if I thought the reason Floyd won was because he fought at 147. But I never questioned that.

Character traits come in many forms based on the genetic clusters grouping together to express the tendency, to see them takes an expression or reaction to a specific then you can pin point the character trait behind the reaction, you are defining character like you define boxing where you want to throw a blanket over big clumps without being very specific. Saying to you I think you are off in the head is totally different than someone failing to admit somebody was right or wrong once proof is established, Im being real telling you want I think, and I will be real when Im proving wrong, I never mind in being wrong on a fact because it means Ive learned something.

Im not into arguing opinion its an endless loop of nothing, argue a fact and I will never give in when Im right, one day you will figure that out, if you start a thread on CWs you will see opinion vs fact in action, this 30hr weigh-in that fans embrace is such smoke and mirrors to the real fight.

As I said lurky is the curve ball, you only came in to flame me by choosing to ride with him, now he lets you be Crusader Rabbit while he sneaks of out the back door, the last few posts page 8 and his response on page 9 says it all.

Do I have to show you when you tried making fun of me and bringing up meds? And the meme you posted? Not only that, but you said if you had a dog that had the type of mental illness you think I have, you would kill the dog. So do you really want to continue down this road?

Also I never questioned or flat out said you were wrong with Hatton and the fight night weight. You would have something if I said you are wrong, but I never said that. So why would I have to say you're right when I never questioned his fight night weight in the first place?

[lurkyshaka]

Leave it fellas, he absolutely CANNOT bring himself be truthful/critical of Floyd in anyway.

Off course Lurky because you were dead wrong in your original comment and like the other girl cant man up and say so, so then you come with the classes are irrelevant BS, which Ive explained 20 different ways.

Floyd beat Hatton at his best fighting weight, that was the debate and you lost suck it up sunshine.

STFU....you became a troll way back when anyone disagreed with you and you're apparently still one now. Look YOU tried to peddle a downright lie originally when you stated that Hatton wanted it at 147....WTF...but that showed your agenda

The fight should have been fought at 140.....it'd have meant more there. End of topic.

Just as Floyd's wins over Marquez would have meant more at 135....
Just as Floyd's win over Alvarez would have meant more if didn't make Alvarez make a catchweight....
Just as the win over Manny would have meant more had it occurred at the time Manny looked unstoppable and obviously before he'd suffered a brutal KO defeat.....

There is a theme here with Floyd....only you are blind to it by design.

[gino7799]

No one was harsher on Floyd than me. However, I have to say he was amazingly gifted. His defense was second to none and as a boxer I have a lot of respect for him and what he accomplished.