Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Section that includes boxing discussions and other combat sports.
ObJuan13
Posts: 6591
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:07 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by ObJuan13 »

jeff_lacy_ko wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:05 pm Realistically speaking...

How many of these fights are just fixed? Seriously i just dont believe in incompetence of someone like byrd scoring 10 rounds to canelo. There was not way possible that happened. Or casamayor beating santa cruz. Or various others here
I think most of them are just plain fixed. Incompetence on that level is super rare in my experiences...

Reminds me of Robert DeNiro and the stupid cowboy guy in Casino. Ppl like that pretty much only exist in movies.
Last edited by ObJuan13 on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tocsin
Posts: 5658
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Tocsin »

It's so disproportionately the A-side who benefits that I think there is definitely corruption involved.
NoPropaganda 253
Posts: 13657
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:43 pm
Location: Tacoma, WA

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by NoPropaganda 253 »

“That judge should be banned from ever scoring a fight,” Arum said. “He should be investigated and banned. And I promote Hart! I mean, sh-t, how can you ever score that fight for Jesse Hart? I mean, it’s not even an argument.”
Danielk015
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:44 pm
Location: Irvine, kali

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Danielk015 »

Tocsin wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:31 am It's so disproportionately the A-side who benefits that I think there is definitely corruption involved.
Horn and Bradley just high fived each other
User avatar
Cagiva9
Posts: 14879
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:28 pm
Location: long beach, ca

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Cagiva9 »

Nobody benefits from a single horrible card. If you were going to fix, or attempt to fix a fight, why waste money on one judge but lose anyway?
User avatar
Primetyme199
TTR MMA Challenge #1 & 3 Champ
TTR MMA Challenge #1 & 3 Champ
Posts: 31161
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Primetyme199 »

Just a note, you may not have seen anything about this in the media or anywhere but don't think the judge in question is getting off with nothing happening.

NJ in the past has suspended judges and had them go through retraining.

This was from years ago:

In a letter obtained by ESPN.com, New Jersey commissioner Aaron M. Davis wrote to Lara promoter Dave Itskowitch of Golden Boy Promotions and Williams' promoter Dan Goossen informing them of the decision, which came after a video review of the fight with the judges.

"The New Jersey State Athletic Control Board was responsible for assigning all three judges who scored this contest and decided the outcome," Davis wrote in the letter. "At the conclusion of the contest, this agency had concerns about the final scores. Due to these concerns we decided to conduct a full review of the scoring.

"As part of this review, the NJSACB called in all three judges to our Trenton offices and conducted a full analysis of the scoring of each round."

Davis said that the review of the fight was complete and the NJSACB "has not found any evidence of bias, fraud, corruption or incapacity on the part of any of the judges. However, we remain unsatisfied with the scoring of the contest even after hearing the explanations from the judges.

"The NJSACB does not have the legal authority under these circumstances to invalidate the official result. This is due to the fact that all scoring is a matter of subjective judgment. In a similar fashion we cannot mandate a rematch. However, our opinion is that a rematch may be warranted.

"This agency has placed all three judges on indefinite suspension. Further, all three judges will be required to undergo additional training prior to their return to professional boxing judging."

Davis went further in apologizing for the lackluster judging.

"Any contestant who enters a ring or cage in our state deserves the best officiating that we can provide," Davis wrote. "While we do not mean to diminish Mr. Williams' competitive spirit and exciting style, we feel that we did not provide our best officiating on July 9. Because we have a rich history of boxing and combat sports in New Jersey, we aspire to consistently improve in our officiating and strive to learn from this situation. We have no further comment on this matter at the current time."


Bennett didn't work a pro fight for 3 years
Givens didn't work a pro fight for 4 years
Couldn't find anything on Whitaker

Here's another article on the 3 of them and the sanctions: https://nypost.com/2012/05/21/three-new ... scorecard/
The fighters he's beaten aren't even household names in their own household.

"Never shall innocent blood be shed. Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god."
Tocsin
Posts: 5658
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Tocsin »

Cagiva9 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:14 am Nobody benefits from a single horrible card. If you were going to fix, or attempt to fix a fight, why waste money on one judge but lose anyway?
Doesn't even have to be a fix in for there to be corruption. It is corruption as well if the one judge knowingly favours one side for reasons other than what's happened in the ring. For example, if that judge thinks it will put them in favour with higher powers in the sport. Also, let's say this fight was closer, then you can have a bought card making a difference...

There are exceptions, but looking at bad judging overall there is a massive A-side bias. That strikes me as something other than mere incompetence at work. It doesn't mean these are all fixes or that money is always changing hands, but I think there is an unethical force influencing a lot of judges, and unfortunately many of those judges get repeat work in bigger fights.
gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

Tocsin wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:57 pm
Cagiva9 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:14 am Nobody benefits from a single horrible card. If you were going to fix, or attempt to fix a fight, why waste money on one judge but lose anyway?
Doesn't even have to be a fix in for there to be corruption. It is corruption as well if the one judge knowingly favours one side for reasons other than what's happened in the ring. For example, if that judge thinks it will put them in favour with higher powers in the sport. Also, let's say this fight was closer, then you can have a bought card making a difference...

There are exceptions, but looking at bad judging overall there is a massive A-side bias. That strikes me as something other than mere incompetence at work. It doesn't mean these are all fixes or that money is always changing hands, but I think there is an unethical force influencing a lot of judges, and unfortunately many of those judges get repeat work in bigger fights.
Indeed. Which is why I created this thread. Since us Boxing fans so rarely get justice in the way of seeing these bad officials fired or even seriously punished (in most cases notwithstanding the stuff Prime pointed out).

At least we have a record where these guys don't ever get to wash the stain off of what they've done. I don't know how much good it does, but it feels like one of the most important contributions I've had to this site to me so I'm proud of it. It's unfortunate that we need it so often, but at least rather than just complaining and moving on to the next fight we get to keep these bastards names forever enshrined in the hall of shame.
Image
Tocsin
Posts: 5658
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Tocsin »

Chas Coakley, Kieran McCann , Marcus McDonnell

Absolutely terrible robbery today, scoring for Tyronne McKenna over Mohammed Mimoune. MM deserved 7-9 out of the 10 rounds. It was so bad that when the decision was announced the ref went up to the announcer to double check that he'd read the result correctly.
User avatar
the13r
TTR
Posts: 147646
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:11 pm
Location: Miss You John & Kevin

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by the13r »

Tocsin wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:22 pm Chas Coakley, Kieran McCann , Marcus McDonnell

Absolutely terrible robbery today, scoring for Tyronne McKenna over Mohammed Mimoune. MM deserved 7-9 out of the 10 rounds. It was so bad that when the decision was announced the ref went up to the announcer to double check that he'd read the result correctly.
gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

Dave Moretti

94-94 draw in Greer vs Plania. Just absurd
Image
User avatar
the13r
TTR
Posts: 147646
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:11 pm
Location: Miss You John & Kevin

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by the13r »

gilgamesh wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:53 pm Dave Moretti

94-94 draw in Greer vs Plania. Just absurd
Image
gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

So other than getting dropped he thought Greer was in total control from the 4th round on lol

Yeah, ok.

Goes to show how buried Greer was already early, that he had to start covering his ass like that.

In all seriousness, once a guy gets 3 absolutely atrocious marks against them, which it'd have to be to make our list, is there somebody we can contact to petition for their removal from judging? I'd like our little database here to actually accomplish something.

As it is, it kinda serves as a warning for the ultra educated fan, but doesn't do much else. It'd be nice if we could actually affect the sport somehow, though I guess I'd allow 3 strikes before calling for their heads lol. (metaphorically speaking of course)
Image
Ledhed
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Ledhed »

Haven't weighed in on this topic but I'm with you guys in not buying that judges and refs are incompetent. I don't believe there are out-and-out fixes but I have little doubt that promoters work to grease the skids for their fighters. I believe influence trickles down from promoters through commissions to officials like judges and refs. Short of an absolute fix, they make it as difficult as possible for the B-side to win. That's why it often appears that one judge's card is out of whack. Influencing more than one would spell fix. Get to one judge and a close fight can fall your way. It's also very easy to spot a ref who's being harder on a B-side fighter and/or ignores fouls by an A-sider. I'm a believer in the existence of corruption. There's too much money at stake for promoters to resist trying to create the most favorable conditions for their assets to maintain optimum marketability. Keep the promoter happy and it's more money for everyone. Unfortunately for TopRank, Plania could not be denied that victory. Santillan on the other hand enjoyed the perks of being with an influential promoter. He didn't deserve that win.
User avatar
Primetyme199
TTR MMA Challenge #1 & 3 Champ
TTR MMA Challenge #1 & 3 Champ
Posts: 31161
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:14 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Primetyme199 »

Judging The Judges: Santillan-DeMarco Scorecard Analysis

https://www.boxingscene.com/judging-jud ... is--149576

Those who fail to acknowledge the subjectivity of round-by-round scoring will claim that Antonio DeMarco was robbed by three masked men Tuesday evening in Las Vegas.

Cooler heads will acknowledge that the former lightweight titlist deserved the nod in his tightly contested welterweight affair with Giovani Santillan. Instead, DeMarco was forced to settle for a majority decision loss in a fight where the three ringside judges—Steve Weisfeld, Tim Cheatham and Dave Moretti—agreed on just three of the ten rounds in Tuesday’s ESPN-televised co-feature at the MGM Grand Conference Center.

Judges Tim Cheatham and Steve Weisfeld both scored the contest 96-94 in favor of Santillan, an unbeaten prospect who is now co-promoted by Top Rank, the lead promoter for Tuesday’s show and the ESPN series as a whole. A dissenting card of 95-95 was turned by judge Dave ‘Not Carl’ Moretti, one of two bouts on the evening where the veteran ringside official failed to come up with a winner.

Image

All three were among a small handful of essential personnel permitted in the venue, all wearing protective masks in line with coronavirus disease (COVID-19) health protocol.

The entire ESPN broadcast team agreed with the general take from televised viewers, believing that at least six of the ten rounds should have been awaded to Mexico’s DeMarco (33-9-1, 24KOs).

Judge Moretti could have arrived at that point had he scored at least one of the final four rounds for DeMarco. The 75-year old ringside scorer from Las Vegas—for years regarded as one of the best in the sport—had Santillan (26-0, 15KOs) trailing 59-55 through six rounds before scoring the final four rounds in favor of the San Diego-bred welterweight prospect.

Similarly, judge Weisfeld provided Santillan with a path to victory by awarding the final three rounds in his favor. The 55-year old judge from New Jersey—also among the very best ringside officials in boxing today—had DeMarco ahead by one point (67-66) through seven rounds before providing Santillan with the clean sweep.

DeMarco never stood a chance on the card of judge Cheatham. The 34-year old boxer well behind on the scorecard of the Nevada-based judge who scored the final two rounds in his favor—both stanzas going in the opposite direction of his ringside peers.

All three judges had Santillan winning rounds one and eight, while unanimously scoring round two in favor of Demarco. Judges Weisfeld and Cheatham disagreed on all but round beyond that, despite turning in the same final score. The only other round in which they saw eye-to-eye was round four, both awarding the frame to DeMarco.

Judges Moretti and Weisfeld were in sync for all but three rounds. They both scored rounds one, eight, nine and ten in favor of Santillan, while seeing DeMarco prevail in rounds two, five and six.

Common ground on the scorecards of judges Moretti and Cheatham came in just five of the ten rounds. Santillan was awarded rounds one, seven and eight in their eyes, while both had DeMarco winning rounds two and three.

Interestingly, Cheatham and Moretti found themselves far more in sync in the evening’s main event, despite not agreeing on the winner. Philippines’ Mike Plania won a 10-round majority decision over bantamweight contender Joshua Greer Jr. Most viewers took issue with the 94-94 card turned in by judge Moretti, who cast the dissenting vote in just two rounds—five and ten, both of which he scored for Greer in coming up with the draw. Judge Cheatham had it 96-92 in favor of Plania, in line with the majority of home viewers.
The fighters he's beaten aren't even household names in their own household.

"Never shall innocent blood be shed. Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god."
Ledhed
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Ledhed »

So Moretti scored the last 4 rounds for both Santillan and Greer arriving at a draw for each A-side fighter.
gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

Bump because I don't even know what section this thread is in a lot of the time.
Image
User avatar
the13r
TTR
Posts: 147646
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:11 pm
Location: Miss You John & Kevin

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by the13r »

This was terrible today...
super middle
Timo Rost 9 0 1
vs
Gino Kanters 8 3 1

Draw
Rost down in round 5
Kanters totally robbed here by the judges


Possible full fight here:
https://sportdeutschland.tv/boxen/profi ... no-kanters
gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

Who was the judge or judges that botched it Astor?

Name shame 'em. That's what this thread is for.

We name names lol.
Image
gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

Frank Lombardi: 118-110 in favor of Rolando Romero over Jackson Martinez

The other 2 scores in this bout are questionable as well, but this one is just outright unexplainable.
Image
Tocsin
Posts: 5658
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Tocsin »

gilgamesh wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:05 am Frank Lombardi: 118-110 in favor of Rolando Romero over Jackson Martinez

The other 2 scores in this bout are questionable as well, but this one is just outright unexplainable.
I think all the judges should be here for that fight. Even a draw would've been generous to Romero..seemed like an 8-4/9-3 type of win for Marinez to me. Romero was a big disappointment and looked very very basic.
User avatar
the13r
TTR
Posts: 147646
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:11 pm
Location: Miss You John & Kevin

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by the13r »

gilgamesh
TTR's Round by Round Expert
Posts: 21413
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:59 am
Location: Terrapin Station

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by gilgamesh »

Lou Moret: 117-111 in favor of Abel Ramos against Yordenis Ugas

An absolute joke
Image
User avatar
jeff_lacy_ko
Posts: 9048
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:46 pm
Location: milwaukee,wi

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by jeff_lacy_ko »

That us one of the worst scorecards ever

Canelo winning 10 rounds against ggg is ridiculous but he at least won 4 rounds in reality, maybe 5

Ramos won 2 if you are very generous, more likey 1 or none. moret had him winning 9!!
Tocsin
Posts: 5658
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Re: Watching the Watchers: Keeping tabs on Officials

Post by Tocsin »

Joerg Milke

He had Fedor Chudinov beating Nadjib Mohammedi in a fight that NM dominated, and today he scored Briedis-Dorticos a draw even though Briedis clearly won and deserved at least 8 and as many as 10 rounds.

Also a mention for Andriy Baliasov, who had Chudinov beating Mohammedi as well. The dissenting judge in that fight had it 118-111 Mohammedi, and that seemed pretty much on the mark.

Return to “Boxing & Combat Sports Discussions”