Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

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5_burowz
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Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by 5_burowz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:28 pm

Roman is a great fighter, no doubt about it. Historically speaking, who do you think would've beaten him?

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WillieB59
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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by WillieB59 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:40 pm

I don't know. He's never lost as an amateur or as a pro but bouts against any of the Hall of Famers from junior bantamweight on down would have been great to see.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Danielk015 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:56 pm

Not sure as Roman would match up well with a lot of fly and super flyweight champions. Maybe Pancho Villa would be a solid match? Mark Johnson would be a good scrap too. I also wouldn't mind seeing a young donaire in there with roman. would make for some fireworks.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Alpha-belt » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:09 pm

Hard to say. Roman is one of those guys that I feel could handle his business in any era. Even against any top guy you could name I think it's a 50-50 fight.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Based » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:24 pm

Estrada already did.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by 5_burowz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:33 pm

Based wrote:Estrada already did.

LOL...get serious. It was a good fight but no way did Estrada win it.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Based » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:38 pm

I think a lot of guys from the past could have beaten Chocolalito. Gonzalez also has been in every small weight class thus far in his career (105-115 now), so there are a lot of ATGs to chose from. He is extremely talented, but Roman is hittable and I think that would be his problem if he fought past greats. I think Finito Lopez beats him at 105-108. Nonito Donaire mops the floor with him at 112-115. Even Vic could possible beat him 112-115. Arce would give him a war from 108-115. Ivan Calderon in his prime could have probably gave him a lot of problems. Chiquita and Manitas de Piedra would have given him everything he could handle. I'd pick Galaxy over him and Gilberto Roman over him. I think he goes 50-50 if he was to fight all the guys I named.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Based » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:39 pm

5_burowz wrote:
Based wrote:Estrada already did.

LOL...get serious. It was a good fight but no way did Estrada win it.
I scored it close for Estrada, but they gave it the champ. I think a rematch is a toss up, but Inoue beats him now. I think those two are capable of beating him.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by 5_burowz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:50 pm

Based wrote:
5_burowz wrote:
Based wrote:Estrada already did.

LOL...get serious. It was a good fight but no way did Estrada win it.
I scored it close for Estrada, but they gave it the champ. I think a rematch is a toss up, but Inoue beats him now. I think those two are capable of beating him.

Estrada faded in the 2nd half of the fight, there's no way he won it. Let me know when Inoue starts beating really good competition in the way that Roman has been doing for almost a decade now. I'm not sold on Inoue in the sense that he's going to beat Roman. Roman hasn't even come close to losing a fight that I have seen. The worse punishment he took was in the Yaegashi fight and Viloria had his moments as well. Inoue isn't experienced enough to just take Roman out. I actually think it would be a mistake on Inoue's team to try and put him in with Roman in the short-term.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Based » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:57 pm

I favor Inoue because of his athletic ability and size. As good as Roman is, I think he's fought a lot of soft opponents from 105-108 outside of Estrada who dropped down to fight him. He got some pretty good challenges at 112. I think the more he keeps jumping, the harder the fights will get for him as he'll start fighting bigger and more athletic guys.

Cuadras might give him a battle, but Roman should out last him. To me, it seems he's been avoiding Estrada. Chocolalito isn't as confident as you are in beating Estrada again. The guy is out pricing himself for that fight. Look up his demands.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by 5_burowz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:01 pm

Based wrote:I think a lot of guys from the past could have beaten Chocolalito. Gonzalez also has been in every small weight class thus far in his career (105-115 now), so there are a lot of ATGs to chose from. He is extremely talented, but Roman is hittable and I think that would be his problem if he fought past greats. I think Finito Lopez beats him at 105-108. Nonito Donaire mops the floor with him at 112-115. Even Vic could possible beat him 112-115. Arce would give him a war from 108-115. Ivan Calderon in his prime could have probably gave him a lot of problems. Chiquita and Manitas de Piedra would have given him everything he could handle. I'd pick Galaxy over him and Gilberto Roman over him. I think he goes 50-50 if he was to fight all the guys I named.
Donaire was always a one handed fighter. Vic is a really awkward fighter but chinny. An Arce fight would've been fun. Roman would've mowed Calderon down. Don't get me started on the illusion of greatness that was Ivan Calderon. He got mopped twice by Segura who is nowhere near as good as Roman.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by Based » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:08 pm

5_burowz wrote:
Based wrote:I think a lot of guys from the past could have beaten Chocolalito. Gonzalez also has been in every small weight class thus far in his career (105-115 now), so there are a lot of ATGs to chose from. He is extremely talented, but Roman is hittable and I think that would be his problem if he fought past greats. I think Finito Lopez beats him at 105-108. Nonito Donaire mops the floor with him at 112-115. Even Vic could possible beat him 112-115. Arce would give him a war from 108-115. Ivan Calderon in his prime could have probably gave him a lot of problems. Chiquita and Manitas de Piedra would have given him everything he could handle. I'd pick Galaxy over him and Gilberto Roman over him. I think he goes 50-50 if he was to fight all the guys I named.
Donaire was always a one handed fighter. Vic is a really awkward fighter but chinny. An Arce fight would've been fun. Roman would've mowed Calderon down. Don't get me started on the illusion of greatness that was Ivan Calderon. He got mopped twice by Segura who is nowhere near as good as Roman.
I didn't say all of those guys would have beaten him, but all of them would have given him a fight. I think he beats half of them. I think Caalderon would of given him a good fight in his prime, but Roman would have probably stopped him late.

Fighters I think that would for sure beaten him are Finito, Galaxy, and Donaire (Donaire is too big, athletic, and has real power, he would have murdered Roman). The rest of the guys would give Roman everything he can handle. I forgot to mention him, but Tapia would give him a war as well. I think he wins half and loses half. He probably doesn't lose to anyone around 105-108 outside of Lopez.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by 5_burowz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:10 pm

Based wrote:I favor Inoue because of his athletic ability and size. As good as Roman is, I think he's fought a lot of soft opponents from 105-108 outside of Estrada who dropped down to fight him. He got some pretty good challenges at 112. I think the more he keeps jumping, the harder the fights will get for him as he'll start fighting bigger and more athletic guys.

Cuadras might give him a battle, but Roman should out last him. To me, it seems he's been avoiding Estrada. Chocolalito isn't as confident as you are in beating Estrada again. The guy is out pricing himself for that fight. Look up his demands.

Look at the 2nd half of the Estrada-Roman fight. Roman beat him handily. The idea that Roman is in some way avoiding Estrada is laughable. He wants to be paid more because he's earned it. If anyone has earned big money in this sport, it is Roman. These little guys make shit compared to their larger counterparts. Inoue's athletic ability will not win him a fight against Gonzalez. In the Yaegashi fight, Yaegashi looked 15lbs. heavier than Roman and he still got his ass kicked. Inoue may be in a bigger weight class, but, he has a 'slight' build. He is not a big guy at all and I don't see Roman having much difficulty with him to be honest. Inoue doesn't really sit on his punches that much--especially in the pocket--and I am not at all convinced he would be able to hurt Roman. Inoue couldn't even knock out Carmona, who, was knocked out by Narvaez, who isn't exactly a power puncher.

The Inoue hype train has gotten a little out of hand IMO.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by KSTAT124 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:51 pm

5_burowz wrote:
Based wrote:I favor Inoue because of his athletic ability and size. As good as Roman is, I think he's fought a lot of soft opponents from 105-108 outside of Estrada who dropped down to fight him. He got some pretty good challenges at 112. I think the more he keeps jumping, the harder the fights will get for him as he'll start fighting bigger and more athletic guys.

Cuadras might give him a battle, but Roman should out last him. To me, it seems he's been avoiding Estrada. Chocolalito isn't as confident as you are in beating Estrada again. The guy is out pricing himself for that fight. Look up his demands.

Look at the 2nd half of the Estrada-Roman fight. Roman beat him handily. The idea that Roman is in some way avoiding Estrada is laughable. He wants to be paid more because he's earned it. If anyone has earned big money in this sport, it is Roman. These little guys make shit compared to their larger counterparts. Inoue's athletic ability will not win him a fight against Gonzalez. In the Yaegashi fight, Yaegashi looked 15lbs. heavier than Roman and he still got his ass kicked. Inoue may be in a bigger weight class, but, he has a 'slight' build. He is not a big guy at all and I don't see Roman having much difficulty with him to be honest. Inoue doesn't really sit on his punches that much--especially in the pocket--and I am not at all convinced he would be able to hurt Roman. Inoue couldn't even knock out Carmona, who, was knocked out by Narvaez, who isn't exactly a power puncher.

The Inoue hype train has gotten a little out of hand IMO.
I've been on the Gonzalez bandwagon since 2007. I've also been, thanks to Asianboxing.info, on the Inoue bandwagon since his pro debut in 2012.

I don't think it's a good idea to question Inoue's punching ability based on Carmona going the distance with him. One) Inoue suffered a hand injury during the bout and two) Carmona was only the second fighter to go the distance with Inoue. The other was Ryoichi Taguchi, now the reigning WBA World light flyweight champion, who has yet to be stopped in a professional contest.

"Chocolatito" is now 45-0 with 38 KOs. Seven men have gone the distance with him. Would you question his punching ability because Hiroshi Matsumoto went the distance him? Matsumoto would later be stopped by both Denver Cuello and Kazuto Ioka.

Would you question Gonzalez' ability to finish an opponent because Javier Murillo was around at the final bell? Gonzalez floored Murillo seven times but couldn't keep him on the canvas. Murillo failed to go the distance with Erik Ramirez, Branni Guerrero, Victor Burgos, Gerardo Verde, Nerys Espinoza, and Carlos Velarde.

Francisco Rosas went the full 12 the first time he fought "Chocolatito". Gonzalez did take him out in two in their rematch.

Gonzalez wasn't able to halt Katsunari Takayama, who is a world champion again, but Masato Hatakeyama had.

Manuel Vargas went 12 with "Chocolatito" but has been stopped by Abel Ochoa, Nonito Donaire, Giovani Segura, Luis Concepcion, and Francisco Rodriguez, Jr.

The other two Gonzalez' opponents to to be on their feet when the final bell rang were Juan Francisco Estrada and McWilliams Arroyo. Neither has lost by KO or TKO but Arroyo was decked by Takashi Okada but never hit the deck against Gonzalez.

Again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate to a degree. I think Gonzalez is great- 45-0 overall, 14-0 in world title bouts, and 8-0 against former, reigning, or future world champions- who can argue with that?. But what Inoue has accomplished in just 10 pro bouts is astonishing- 10-0 overall, 5-0 in world title bouts, and 3-0 against reigning or future world champions. His world title-capturing wins at 108 and 115 came against the then consensus #1 fighters of those divisions. (This is not a knock on Gonzalez but when he reached 10-0, he had not only not fought in any world title bouts but had not fought any fighters who had held or would hold world titles.)

Both deserve all the praise they've received.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by KSTAT124 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:10 pm

Based wrote:I favor Inoue because of his athletic ability and size. As good as Roman is, I think he's fought a lot of soft opponents from 105-108 outside of Estrada who dropped down to fight him. He got some pretty good challenges at 112. I think the more he keeps jumping, the harder the fights will get for him as he'll start fighting bigger and more athletic guys.

Cuadras might give him a battle, but Roman should out last him. To me, it seems he's been avoiding Estrada. Chocolalito isn't as confident as you are in beating Estrada again. The guy is out pricing himself for that fight. Look up his demands.
What? Gonzalez fought a lot of soft opponents from 105-108 outside of Estrada? Guys like champions Yutaka Niida, Katsunari Takayama, and Ramon Garcia weren't (and in Takayama's case, aren't) soft. Guys like Jose Luis Varela, Francisco Rosas, Manuel "Chango" Vargas, and Omar Salado were all, during their careers, highly ranked contenders.

Niida was a near-great and multi-time champ Takayama refuses to fade away. You ever see Takayama fight? If you have and still describe him as "soft", then there's no use conversing with you.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by KSTAT124 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:15 pm

Based wrote:To me, it seems he's been avoiding Estrada. Chocolalito isn't as confident as you are in beating Estrada again. The guy is out pricing himself for that fight. Look up his demands.
Estrada hasn't fought since September 26, 2015 because he's been sidelined by injury. Nobody's ducking Estrada and Estrada isn't ducking anyone.

He should be returning to the ring later this year.
Last edited by KSTAT124 on Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Historically, who do you think would beaten Chocolatito?

Post by 5_burowz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:23 pm

KSTAT124 wrote:
5_burowz wrote:
Based wrote:I favor Inoue because of his athletic ability and size. As good as Roman is, I think he's fought a lot of soft opponents from 105-108 outside of Estrada who dropped down to fight him. He got some pretty good challenges at 112. I think the more he keeps jumping, the harder the fights will get for him as he'll start fighting bigger and more athletic guys.

Cuadras might give him a battle, but Roman should out last him. To me, it seems he's been avoiding Estrada. Chocolalito isn't as confident as you are in beating Estrada again. The guy is out pricing himself for that fight. Look up his demands.

Look at the 2nd half of the Estrada-Roman fight. Roman beat him handily. The idea that Roman is in some way avoiding Estrada is laughable. He wants to be paid more because he's earned it. If anyone has earned big money in this sport, it is Roman. These little guys make shit compared to their larger counterparts. Inoue's athletic ability will not win him a fight against Gonzalez. In the Yaegashi fight, Yaegashi looked 15lbs. heavier than Roman and he still got his ass kicked. Inoue may be in a bigger weight class, but, he has a 'slight' build. He is not a big guy at all and I don't see Roman having much difficulty with him to be honest. Inoue doesn't really sit on his punches that much--especially in the pocket--and I am not at all convinced he would be able to hurt Roman. Inoue couldn't even knock out Carmona, who, was knocked out by Narvaez, who isn't exactly a power puncher.

The Inoue hype train has gotten a little out of hand IMO.
I've been on the Gonzalez bandwagon since 2007. I've also been, thanks to Asianboxing.info, on the Inoue bandwagon since his pro debut in 2012.

I don't think it's a good idea to question Inoue's punching ability based on Carmona going the distance with him. One) Inoue suffered a hand injury during the bout and two) Carmona was only the second fighter to go the distance with Inoue. The other was Ryoichi Taguchi, now the reigning WBA World light flyweight champion, who has yet to be stopped in a professional contest.

"Chocolatito" is now 45-0 with 38 KOs. Seven men have gone the distance with him. Would you question his punching ability because Hiroshi Matsumoto went the distance him? Matsumoto would later be stopped by both Denver Cuello and Kazuto Ioka.

Would you question Gonzalez' ability to finish an opponent because Javier Murillo was around at the final bell? Gonzalez floored Murillo seven times but couldn't keep him on the canvas. Murillo failed to go the distance with Erik Ramirez, Branni Guerrero, Victor Burgos, Gerardo Verde, Nerys Espinoza, and Carlos Velarde.

Francisco Rosas went the full 12 the first time he fought "Chocolatito". Gonzalez did take him out in two in their rematch.

Gonzalez wasn't able to halt Katsunari Takayama, who is a world champion again, but Masato Hatakeyama had.

Manuel Vargas went 12 with "Chocolatito" but has been stopped by Abel Ochoa, Nonito Donaire, Giovani Segura, Luis Concepcion, and Francisco Rodriguez, Jr.

The other two Gonzalez' opponents to to be on their feet when the final bell rang were Juan Francisco Estrada and McWilliams Arroyo. Neither has lost by KO or TKO but Arroyo was decked by Takashi Okada but never hit the deck against Gonzalez.

Again, I'm playing Devil's Advocate to a degree. I think Gonzalez is great- 45-0 overall, 14-0 in world title bouts, and 8-0 against former, reigning, or future world champions- who can argue with that?. But what Inoue has accomplished in just 10 pro bouts is astonishing- 10-0 overall, 5-0 in world title bouts, and 3-0 against reigning or future world champions. His world title-capturing wins at 108 and 115 came against the then consensus #1 fighters of those divisions. (This is not a knock on Gonzalez but when he reached 10-0, he had not only not fought in any world title bouts but had not fought any fighters who had held or would hold world titles.)

Both deserve all the praise they've received.

I'm basing it not only on Inoue's latest fight, but, overall after having watched him and also watching Roman. I don't think he's got anything for Roman aside from fast hands. But, there's no doubt in my mind that Roman gives him the business. There's no doubt in my mind that if Inoue decides to trade with Roman on the inside he'll quickly learn that was a mistake. Inoue is too small and he drops his hands too much.

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