Primo Carnera

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marciano1952
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Primo Carnera

Post by marciano1952 »

Do you think he should be in the IBHOF.
Part of me says yes the other no
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Post by mrknow »

i think he did do enough to get in he was a big lug that had a good punch and has a good resume yes he should be in and the committee after reading these posts should start the process :)
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Post by KSTAT124 »

Three factors in his favor:

1. He's been elected to the World Boxing Hall of Fame.

2. All of the other heavyweight champions of the 1930s- lineal champs Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Braddock, and Louis along with IBU champion George Godfrey, the two-time World "Colored" champ- are in the IBHOF.

3. He went 4-4 against fighters who were later inducted into the IBHOF.
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Post by JuiceMan »

He was a circus type fighter who drew large crowds for his sheer size. I say no....hell, most of his fights were already determined before the bell, due to the mafia controling his career. It's really a sad story how he was exploited by so many people.
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Post by wimpy »

Today we visited my wife's Great Grandfather. He lived down in California working in radio and for NBC. He had the chance to meet a number of famous people. Did a 15 minute interview with President Truman during his famous Whistle Stop Tour. He also mentioned meeting Primo Carnera. He (the wifes GGpa) wouldn't shake his hand. He played piano as a part of a gig and decided it wasn't worth the risk after looking at the size of Carnera's hands. Said he was very personable.
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Post by KSTAT124 »

JuiceMan wrote:He was a circus type fighter who drew large crowds for his sheer size. I say no....hell, most of his fights were already determined before the bell, due to the mafia controling his career. It's really a sad story how he was exploited by so many people.
Often boxing fans "remember" Carnera through the character in "The Harder They Fall", Toro Moreno, who writer Budd Schulberg loosely based on Carnera.

While some of Carnera's earlier fights were fixed by the mob and two, Carnera's bouts with Hall of Famer Young Stribling, probably by the fighters themselves, there's no evidence that any of the outcomes of Carnera's post-1930 bouts were pre-determined with two possible exceptions. One was a fight marred by a horrendous decision against Carnera in 1932 and the other a bout Carnera had in his post-world championship years which was investigated because of rumors that both Carnera and the fighter he beat were actually both managed by the same man, Luis Sorisi.

Carnera's career was tainted by rumors, some based on fact but most based on conjecture. People pointed to his knockout win over Jack Sharkey with which he won the title because Sharkey had outpoined Carnera the first time they fought as if Carnera was the only fighter to ever win a rematch after losing in the earlier bout. They also pointed to the sustained beating he took in his multi-knockdown, title-losing performance against Max Baer, saying how could he have possibly won the title legitimately if he could lose it in that manner not pointing the tremendous heart and courage Carnera showed in repeatedly rising from the canvas, actually winning a few rounds, and lasting into the eleventh round.

The bottom line is that Carnera, although handled by those with dubious connections, beat many good heavyweights, most of them without outside interference.
Last edited by KSTAT124 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kinggrissly »

Definitely not. Even if you take away all the fix innuendo, he simply didn't achieve enough to make the Hall. He beat a good light heavyweight in Loughran (assuming it was legit), but the rest is slim pickings.
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Post by marciano1952 »

kinggrissly wrote:Definitely not. Even if you take away all the fix innuendo, he simply didn't achieve enough to make the Hall. He beat a good light heavyweight in Loughran (assuming it was legit), but the rest is slim pickings.
his Win over Sharkey was Legit....and Schaaf, Levinsky, and Lasky arnt bad
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Post by KSTAT124 »

kinggrissly wrote:Definitely not. Even if you take away all the fix innuendo, he simply didn't achieve enough to make the Hall. He beat a good light heavyweight in Loughran (assuming it was legit), but the rest is slim pickings.
First of all, Carnera is a Hall of Famer, having been inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990, he's just not in the IBHOF.

He was 3-1 in world title bouts, 4-4 against fighters later inducted into the IBHOF, and beat a plethora of his era's top heavyweights. He's the only lineal heavyweight champion of the '30s not to be inducted into the IBHOF.

He knocked out Jack Sharkey (IBHOF, WBHF) to win the title, successfully defended it against perennial heavyweight contender Paulino Uzcudun and former world light heavyweight champion and then highly ranked heavyweight contender Tommy Loughran (IBHOF, WBHF) before losing it to Max Baer (IBHOF, WBHF).

He was 1-1 vs. Sharkey, 1-1 vs. Young Stribling (IBHOF, WBHF) (both fights alleged to have been "pre-arranged" but that didn't keep Stribling out of the IBHOF), 1-0 vs. George Godfrey (IBHOF), 1-0 vs. Loughran, 0-1 vs. Baer, and 0-1 vs. Joe Louis (IBHOF, WBHF).

It should be noted that Loughran voluntarily relinquished the light heavyweight title in 1929 to campaign as a heavyweight. He fought exclusively as a heavyweight from that time until he challenged Carnera in 1934.

As marciano1952 pointed out, Carnera also defeated Ernie Schaaf and King Levinsky (Carnera and Art Lasky fought in a No Decision bout- Carnera was unofficially awarded the "newspaper" decision). Other top heavyweights of the era that he beat included KO Christner, Bearcat Wright, Jim Maloney, Vittorio (also listed as Victorio) Campolo, Pierre Charles, Don McCorkindale, Jose Santa, Big Boy Peterson, Ray Impellittiere, and Walter Neusel.

His resume would be enough to get him in under normal circumstances. It's his "tainted" history- that which was factual multiplied by that which was myth- which has kept him out.
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Post by kinggrissly »

That's nice for the WBHOF, I was only speaking for me. 3-1 in world title fights is a good record but not an overwhelming one. Is it a good career on paper? Yes. Should he make the ballot? Yes. If he had the same record with a couple fights of the year and showed great skills in those fights, would he be a Hall of Famer? I would say so. Bottom line, was Primo a Hall of Famer? Not imo. Good topic BTW.
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Post by marciano1952 »

kinggrissly wrote:That's nice for the WBHOF, I was only speaking for me. 3-1 in world title fights is a good record but not an overwhelming one. Is it a good career on paper? Yes. Should he make the ballot? Yes. If he had the same record with a couple fights of the year and showed great skills in those fights, would he be a Hall of Famer? I would say so. Bottom line, was Primo a Hall of Famer? Not imo. Good topic BTW.
even though i made this thread in 06 at the age of 17, i still feel the exact same about Carnera....He was Lineal HW Champion, won the title and defended it on fair terms(no fixes)....but did he really do enough? IDK....Johansson is in there and he has a Similar Resume
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Post by kinggrissly »

marciano1952 wrote:
kinggrissly wrote:That's nice for the WBHOF, I was only speaking for me. 3-1 in world title fights is a good record but not an overwhelming one. Is it a good career on paper? Yes. Should he make the ballot? Yes. If he had the same record with a couple fights of the year and showed great skills in those fights, would he be a Hall of Famer? I would say so. Bottom line, was Primo a Hall of Famer? Not imo. Good topic BTW.
even though i made this thread in 06 at the age of 17, i still feel the exact same about Carnera....He was Lineal HW Champion, won the title and defended it on fair terms(no fixes)....but did he really do enough? IDK....Johansson is in there and he has a Similar Resume
This is the dilemma. Johannson's one of the most undeserving inductees, and Carnera's record on paper is better. But if we start saying that everyone who did as much as Johannson makes it, you open the floodgates to way too many fighters.

If I recall correctly there has been doubt cast on the Loughran fight. To be fair I watched it once and didn't see anything to indicate a fix. But given the need for some better crowd control I think the cloud of suspicion around his career is a good reason to keep him out.
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Post by KSTAT124 »

kinggrissly wrote:
marciano1952 wrote:
kinggrissly wrote:That's nice for the WBHOF, I was only speaking for me. 3-1 in world title fights is a good record but not an overwhelming one. Is it a good career on paper? Yes. Should he make the ballot? Yes. If he had the same record with a couple fights of the year and showed great skills in those fights, would he be a Hall of Famer? I would say so. Bottom line, was Primo a Hall of Famer? Not imo. Good topic BTW.
even though i made this thread in 06 at the age of 17, i still feel the exact same about Carnera....He was Lineal HW Champion, won the title and defended it on fair terms(no fixes)....but did he really do enough? IDK....Johansson is in there and he has a Similar Resume
This is the dilemma. Johannson's one of the most undeserving inductees, and Carnera's record on paper is better. But if we start saying that everyone who did as much as Johannson makes it, you open the floodgates to way too many fighters.

If I recall correctly there has been doubt cast on the Loughran fight. To be fair I watched it once and didn't see anything to indicate a fix. But given the need for some better crowd control I think the cloud of suspicion around his career is a good reason to keep him out.
The unfair suspicion that Carnera's title-winning knockout of Jack Sharkey and his title-retaining decision of Loughran were tainted is a result of some critics and fans coming to the erroneous conclusion that Carnera could not have possibly beaten Hall of Famers legitimately even though he did. It's a conclusion that not only unfairly diminishes Carnera's actual accomplishments, it unfairly questions Sharkey's and Loughran's character.

If you look at a list of all the lineal heavyweight champions from John L. Sullivan to Mike Tyson, there are only three who are not in the International Boxing Hall Of Fame- Marvin Hart, Carnera, and Leon Spinks. Sullivan, James J. Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, James J. Jeffries, Tommy Burns, Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Sharkey, Max Baer, James J. Braddock, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Johansson, Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, and Tyson are all IBHOF enshrinees.

Carnera and Young Stribling allegedly fixed their two bouts- "you win one on a foul and I'll win one on a foul"- Stribling's in the IBHOF.

Jake LaMotta admitted throwing a fight- his 1947 bout with light heavyweight Billy Fox- yet LaMotta is in the IBHOF.

As for Johansson, he may have only been 1-2 in world title bouts but he dethroned Hall of Famer and those losses in world title bouts were the only two losses of his professional career. Was he one of the best heavyweights of the mid-50s through the early '60s? Yes. Did he beat a number of ranked heavyweights before and after he was heavyweight champ? Yes. While his resume may not be as good as many others enshrined in Canastota, it's not bad. He beat three men who had fought for and/or would go on to fight world heavyweight titles (Cooper, Machen, and London), five men who had held, held, or would hold the European title (Ten Hoff, Cavicchi, Neuhaus, Richardson, and Cooper), five men who held or would hold the British Empire- now known as Commonwealth- title (Bygraves, Richardson, Erskine, London, and Cooper), and three men who held or would hold the British title (Cooper, Erskine, London). AND he was the lineal heavyweight champion of the world- something that practically guaranteed being inducted.
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Post by kinggrissly »

KSTAT124 wrote: If you look at a list of all the lineal heavyweight champions from John L. Sullivan to Mike Tyson, there are only three who are not in the International Boxing Hall Of Fame- Marvin Hart, Carnera, and Leon Spinks. Sullivan, James J. Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, James J. Jeffries, Tommy Burns, Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Sharkey, Max Baer, James J. Braddock, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Johansson, Sonny Liston, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, and Tyson are all IBHOF enshrinees.
That's interesting. Baer, Burns and Willard would not make my cut. I think I'd let Schmelling, Sharkey and Braddock in by the skin of their teeth. I think when you're going back that far in time there's a tendency to reward historical significance to a degree.
KSTAT124 wrote: Carnera and Young Stribling allegedly fixed their two bouts- "you win one on a foul and I'll win one on a foul"- Stribling's in the IBHOF.

Jake LaMotta admitted throwing a fight- his 1947 bout with light heavyweight Billy Fox- yet LaMotta is in the IBHOF.
My point wasn't that Carnera should be disqualified for moral reasons, but that there was probably enough fixing that went on to undermine a shaky HOF candidacy. If you can say with total confidence that the Stribling bouts were the only fixes I might have to rethink it, but he'd still be on the bubble by my standards. I think Stribling and Lamotta are solid inductees. This is similar to the attitude I have about steroids and the Baseball HOF--I think when you have an overwhelming lock like Barry Bonds, who clearly did enough clean to have made it, he should not be kept out. But when you have a MacGuire, who more than likely would not have achieved HOF credentials cleanly, the steroids should make the difference.

KSTAT124 wrote: As for Johansson, he may have only been 1-2 in world title bouts but he dethroned Hall of Famer and those losses in world title bouts were the only two losses of his professional career. Was he one of the best heavyweights of the mid-50s through the early '60s? Yes. Did he beat a number of ranked heavyweights before and after he was heavyweight champ? Yes. While his resume may not be as good as many others enshrined in Canastota, it's not bad. He beat three men who had fought for and/or would go on to fight world heavyweight titles (Cooper, Machen, and London), five men who had held, held, or would hold the European title (Ten Hoff, Cavicchi, Neuhaus, Richardson, and Cooper), five men who held or would hold the British Empire- now known as Commonwealth- title (Bygraves, Richardson, Erskine, London, and Cooper), and three men who held or would hold the British title (Cooper, Erskine, London). AND he was the lineal heavyweight champion of the world- something that practically guaranteed being inducted.
It's a fine career, but that's not what HOF means to me. To borrow from baseball again, you can be one of the best outfielders for a five or even ten year period and not make it. I guess it comes down to believing that in order to have an exclusive club, there have to be some good people left at the door.
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Post by KSTAT124 »

One of the misconceptions regarding Halls of Fame is that it's only the most elite of the elite who deserve to get in. That isn't nor has it ever been the case. The best of their time are usually those who get in. In baseball, someone who was great for five years but only above average (on a major league level) for the rest of his career usually won't make it but someone who has had ten great years and a few other good ones will. Someone who has been great for 15 or more years is a shoe-in but someone who has been great a few years and productive for the rest of a 20-year career will probably make it as well.

Fame also plays a major role (see "Tinker to Evers to Chance"). Immortalized by a famous poem, all three were inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. All three had long major league careers but Tinker was a .262 lifetime hitter who hit over .300 only once, Evers was a .270 lifetime hitter who hit .300 or better twice (.300, .341) and won one MVP award, and Chance hit .296 for his career with four seasons of hitting over .300. They were all good and at times great but their link to each other and to baseball folklore guaranteed their plaques in Cooperstown. They were the most famous double play combination in baseball history.

Johansson had his trilogy with Patterson. He was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world when the heavyweight title wasn't splintered and being the heavyweight champ meant you were one of the most famous athletes in the world.

I never have a problem with who gets elected to the various sports' Halls of Fame. I do a problem regarding those deserving induction who get overlooked and/or passed over.

My view of the matter is this. If I was in a position to nominate and vote on HOF candidates, there are those I would nominate and vote for, there are those I probably wouldn't nominate but after consideration would vote for, and there are those I wouldn't nominate and wouldn't vote for. However, if a candidate of the last category was elected, I'd congratulate him or her, accept that he or she was a Hall of Famer (figuring I must have been wrong being that enough people voted that candidate in), and move on.
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Post by kinggrissly »

KSTAT124 wrote: Fame also plays a major role (see "Tinker to Evers to Chance"). Immortalized by a famous poem, all three were inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. All three had long major league careers but Tinker was a .262 lifetime hitter who hit over .300 only once, Evers was a .270 lifetime hitter who hit .300 or better twice (.300, .341) and won one MVP award, and Chance hit .296 for his career with four seasons of hitting over .300. They were all good and at times great but their link to each other and to baseball folklore guaranteed their plaques in Cooperstown. They were the most famous double play combination in baseball history.
I think that's the point I'm making in a sense. You wouldn't want Tinker's induction to be treated as precedent binding the voters to induct everyone whose career was as good or better. That would mean letting too many in. I don't have a problem with a Braddock, or in the future an Arturo Gatti getting the benefit of the doubt based on sentimentality or other intangibles. But I would have a problem if it lead the voters to say, "Well, if Gatti's a HOF, so is X."
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Re: Primo Carnera

Post by NoPropaganda 253 »

He should be in strictly on the merit of having to fight that damn kangaroo.

Poor, giant, dumb bastard. Always felt sorry for the guy.

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