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WarBoxing
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Post by WarBoxing »

FightFanAL wrote:
WarBoxing wrote:Here Bama, heres what I got:



1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Benny Leonard
10. Mickey Walker
11. Gene Tunney
12. Barney Ross
13. Eder Jofre
14. Joe Gans
15. Jack Dempsey
16 Tony Canzoner
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Jack Johnson
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Bob Fitzsimmons
good man Warboxing! :D
As a Louisiana homer, I considered putting Canzoneri #1 because he was born here. But I knew you would see through me. :D
"I'm no WarBoxing" - Erison
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

WarBoxing wrote:
FightFanAL wrote:
WarBoxing wrote:Here Bama, heres what I got:



1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Benny Leonard
10. Mickey Walker
11. Gene Tunney
12. Barney Ross
13. Eder Jofre
14. Joe Gans
15. Jack Dempsey
16 Tony Canzoner
17. Sandy Saddler
18. Jack Johnson
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Bob Fitzsimmons
good man Warboxing! :D
As a Louisiana homer, I considered putting Canzoneri #1 because he was born here. But I knew you would see through me. :D
lol, its your list, do it as you see fit.Thats another below the radar type guy that can definately get in
WarBoxing
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Post by WarBoxing »

FightFanAL wrote:
WarBoxing wrote:
FightFanAL wrote: good man Warboxing! :D
As a Louisiana homer, I considered putting Canzoneri #1 because he was born here. But I knew you would see through me. :D
lol, its your list, do it as you see fit.Thats another below the radar type guy that can definately get in
lol. No really, I tried to make my list taking out biases (if thats possible).
"I'm no WarBoxing" - Erison
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

Top 20 thus far

1.Ray Robinson 137
2.Muhammed Ali 115
3.Henry Armstrong 110
4.Harry Greb 104
5.Willie Pep 95
6.Ray Leonard 92
7.Benny Leonard 87
8.Roberto Duran 72
9.Joe Louis 61
10.Jimmy Wilde 45
11.Joe Gans 42
12.(tie)Marvin Hagler 41
12.(tie)Eder Jofre 41
13.Barney Ross 37
14.Sandy Saddler 33
15.Bob Fitzsimmons 32
16.Pernell Whitaker 28
17.Gene Tunney 26
18.(tie)Alexis Arguello 25
18.(tie)Ezzard Charles 25
18.(tie)Mickey Walker 25
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

bump
Woobase
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Post by Woobase »

1) Sugar Ray Robinson
2) Henry Armstrong
3) Harry Greb
4) Muhammad Ali
5) Sam Langford
6) Robert Fitzsimmons
7) Benny Leonard
8) Joe Gans
9) Mickey Walker
10) Roberto Duran
11) Willie Pep
12) Jimmy Wilde
13) Joe Louis
14) Eder Jofre
15) Ezzard Charles
16) Barny Ross
17) Jack Dempsey
18) Tony Canzoneri
19) Archie Moore
20) Gene Tunney
21) Sugar Ray Leonard
22) Stanley Ketchel
23) Roy Jones, Jr.
24) George Dixon
25) Barbados Joe Walcott
26) Sandy Saddler
27) Ike Williams
28) Jack Johnson
29) Ruben Oliveras
30) Ricardo Lopez


You guys need to stop with the Monzon love.....just stop it! ;)

Hagler should probably be on the list somewhere....between 18-25 maybe....
"We have wasted HISTORY like a bunch of drunks shooting dice back in the men's crapper of the local bar" - Charles Bukowski
kinggrissly
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Post by kinggrissly »

Woobase wrote:1) Sugar Ray Robinson
2) Henry Armstrong
3) Harry Greb
4) Muhammad Ali
5) Sam Langford
6) Robert Fitzsimmons
7) Benny Leonard
8) Joe Gans
9) Mickey Walker
10) Roberto Duran
11) Willie Pep
12) Jimmy Wilde
13) Joe Louis
14) Eder Jofre
15) Ezzard Charles
16) Barny Ross
17) Jack Dempsey
18) Tony Canzoneri
19) Archie Moore
20) Gene Tunney
21) Sugar Ray Leonard
22) Stanley Ketchel
23) Roy Jones, Jr.
24) George Dixon
25) Barbados Joe Walcott
26) Sandy Saddler
27) Ike Williams
28) Jack Johnson
29) Ruben Oliveras
30) Ricardo Lopez


You guys need to stop with the Monzon love.....just stop it! ;)

Hagler should probably be on the list somewhere....between 18-25 maybe....
Nice list, the only thing I wonder about is why Fitzsimmons is so high? Is it mainly going from middleweight to heavyweight? He's got a few great wins but his resume doesn't look that deep to me.
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Woobase
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Post by Woobase »

FightFanAL wrote:Top 20 thus far

1.Ray Robinson 137
2.Muhammed Ali 115
3.Henry Armstrong 110
4.Harry Greb 104
5.Willie Pep 95
6.Ray Leonard 92
7.Benny Leonard 87
8.Roberto Duran 72
9.Joe Louis 61
10.Jimmy Wilde 45
11.Joe Gans 42
12.(tie)Marvin Hagler 41
12.(tie)Eder Jofre 41
13.Barney Ross 37
14.Sandy Saddler 33
15.Bob Fitzsimmons 32
16.Pernell Whitaker 28
17.Gene Tunney 26
18.(tie)Alexis Arguello 25
18.(tie)Ezzard Charles 25
18.(tie)Mickey Walker 25

Pretty freaking reasonable...I'm actually somewhat surprised.....

Sorry Sweat Pea fans, but IMO he's the only name on this list which I don't believe deserves to be in the top 20 (see my top 30 list..lol). Not sure about Arguello, either. Tony Canzoneri deserves mention, and going back through the list, I noticed Warboxing mentioned him....good choice Warboxing. OH, and even though Gene Tunney was a better Light Heavyweight than Heavyweight, he may be ranked too high.....again, just my OPINION> lol.

Going over my list, I can only rank modern fighters Ali and Duran in the top ten....sorry, though...I have SRL outside the top 20, but feel he could be a top 20 candidate.

And of course, MICKEY "THE TOY BULLDOG" WALKER is WAY WAY TOO LOW!! haha (Definitely one of my all time favorites....)

Peace!


BTW, great stuff FightFanAl!
"We have wasted HISTORY like a bunch of drunks shooting dice back in the men's crapper of the local bar" - Charles Bukowski
Woobase
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Post by Woobase »

kinggrissly wrote:Nice list, the only thing I wonder about is why Fitzsimmons is so high? Is it mainly going from middleweight to heavyweight? He's got a few great wins but his resume doesn't look that deep to me.
Thanks Griss.

As to Ruby Robert.....back when I had to submit my list to the IBRO, I started chatting via email with Tracy Callis (who actually ranks Bob Fitzsimmons as #1 all time P4P). He actually convinced me, even back when he and I discussed James Jeffries, of the "greatness" of Fitz. I could not rank him #1 or even top #5 (I personally think SRR-Armstrong are and will always be #1 and #1a, with Greb following close behind, but definitely at #3)....so weighed his merits, etc. and stuck him in prior to Benny Leonard, Gans and Walker.

I fooled around with Walker as a top five - six, but felt my "passion" for Walker (ie. nut hugging) might be blinding me...lol.


Edit: Forgot to add a link....sorry..

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodg ... immons.htm
Last edited by Woobase on Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We have wasted HISTORY like a bunch of drunks shooting dice back in the men's crapper of the local bar" - Charles Bukowski
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

Woobase wrote:1) Sugar Ray Robinson
2) Henry Armstrong
3) Harry Greb
4) Muhammad Ali
5) Sam Langford
6) Robert Fitzsimmons
7) Benny Leonard
8) Joe Gans
9) Mickey Walker
10) Roberto Duran
11) Willie Pep
12) Jimmy Wilde
13) Joe Louis
14) Eder Jofre
15) Ezzard Charles
16) Barny Ross
17) Jack Dempsey
18) Tony Canzoneri
19) Archie Moore
20) Gene Tunney
21) Sugar Ray Leonard
22) Stanley Ketchel
23) Roy Jones, Jr.
24) George Dixon
25) Barbados Joe Walcott
26) Sandy Saddler
27) Ike Williams
28) Jack Johnson
29) Ruben Oliveras
30) Ricardo Lopez


You guys need to stop with the Monzon love.....just stop it! ;)

Hagler should probably be on the list somewhere....between 18-25 maybe....
thanks Woo! appreciate it man, we'll list beers and porn stars later
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Bizkit
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Post by Bizkit »

Woobase wrote:1) Sugar Ray Robinson
2) Henry Armstrong
3) Harry Greb
4) Muhammad Ali
5) Sam Langford
6) Robert Fitzsimmons
7) Benny Leonard
8) Joe Gans
9) Mickey Walker
10) Roberto Duran
11) Willie Pep
12) Jimmy Wilde
13) Joe Louis
14) Eder Jofre
15) Ezzard Charles
16) Barny Ross
17) Jack Dempsey
18) Tony Canzoneri
19) Archie Moore
20) Gene Tunney
21) Sugar Ray Leonard
22) Stanley Ketchel
23) Roy Jones, Jr.
24) George Dixon
25) Barbados Joe Walcott
26) Sandy Saddler
27) Ike Williams
28) Jack Johnson
29) Ruben Oliveras
30) Ricardo Lopez


You guys need to stop with the Monzon love.....just stop it! ;)

Hagler should probably be on the list somewhere....between 18-25 maybe....
What a crap list.
No Whitaker?
No Khan?
No Pascal or Miranda in my DVD collection?
kinggrissly
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Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:03 am

Post by kinggrissly »

Woobase wrote:
kinggrissly wrote:Nice list, the only thing I wonder about is why Fitzsimmons is so high? Is it mainly going from middleweight to heavyweight? He's got a few great wins but his resume doesn't look that deep to me.
Thanks Griss.

As to Ruby Robert.....back when I had to submit my list to the IBRO, I started chatting via email with Tracy Callis (who actually ranks Bob Fitzsimmons as #1 all time P4P). He actually convinced me, even back when he and I discussed James Jeffries, of the "greatness" of Fitz. I could not rank him #1 or even top #5 (I personally think SRR-Armstrong are and will always be #1 and #1a, with Greb following close behind, but definitely at #3)....so weighed his merits, etc. and stuck him in prior to Benny Leonard, Gans and Walker.

I fooled around with Walker as a top five - six, but felt my "passion" for Walker (ie. nut hugging) might be blinding me...lol.


Edit: Forgot to add a link....sorry..

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodg ... immons.htm
Interesting. I don't know enough about his style to understand why he's so revered on an anecdotal level. To knock out Dempsey (the Nonpareil) for the middleweight title and Corbett for the heavyweight is pretty awesome. But some are complaining that Pacquaio is now being overhyped for a couple big wins over a wide span of weight.
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Woobase
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Post by Woobase »

kinggrissly wrote:Interesting. I don't know enough about his style to understand why he's so revered on an anecdotal level. To knock out Dempsey (the Nonpareil) for the middleweight title and Corbett for the heavyweight is pretty awesome. But some are complaining that Pacquaio is now being overhyped for a couple big wins over a wide span of weight.
I wish I still had those emails (I lost them all when I switched from prodigy to roadrunner)....they'd help shed some light on Callis' thoughts on Fitz.

He fought a lot of "name" fighters from that era....Corbett, Jeffries (and even though he lost, gave Jeff some hellacious shots to the face), Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey (non-pareil), Joe Choynski, Peter Maher....(Maher was known as a HUGE puncher back then...though lacked skills).

Also, remember he won championships in three weight classes.....defeating George Gardner (1903) for the Light Heavyweight Title.

I believe Nat Fleischer ranked him #3 all time at heavyweight....
"We have wasted HISTORY like a bunch of drunks shooting dice back in the men's crapper of the local bar" - Charles Bukowski
kinggrissly
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Post by kinggrissly »

Woobase wrote:
kinggrissly wrote:Interesting. I don't know enough about his style to understand why he's so revered on an anecdotal level. To knock out Dempsey (the Nonpareil) for the middleweight title and Corbett for the heavyweight is pretty awesome. But some are complaining that Pacquaio is now being overhyped for a couple big wins over a wide span of weight.
I wish I still had those emails (I lost them all when I switched from prodigy to roadrunner)....they'd help shed some light on Callis' thoughts on Fitz.

He fought a lot of "name" fighters from that era....Corbett, Jeffries (and even though he lost, gave Jeff some hellacious shots to the face), Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey (non-pareil), Joe Choynski, Peter Maher....(Maher was known as a HUGE puncher back then...though lacked skills).

Also, remember he won championships in three weight classes.....defeating George Gardner (1903) for the Light Heavyweight Title.

I believe Nat Fleischer ranked him #3 all time at heavyweight....
Okay, I'm sold. :D It's really tough to do these lists where you have to compare fighters you know intimately with guys from the distant past where there's only grainy, off-speed footage.
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Woobase
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Post by Woobase »

kinggrissly wrote:Okay, I'm sold. :D It's really tough to do these lists where you have to compare fighters you know intimately with guys from the distant past where there's only grainy, off-speed footage.
Yes, it really is difficult to make lists like these.......and we (us "younger" fans) must rely on first hand accounts of writers/historians from that era....and/or historians who pour over stats, the grainy footage you mentioned, with their own personal opinions injected into the mix....and hate to admit it, but there are some "historians/journalists" who always seem to have a personal interest/vendetta etc, too.

It would be easier to only inlcude fighters from Ali to the present....well, at least for me....lol. (I have a lot of footage of Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Liston, etc....and wish I had more, too....especially in regards to Charles, Archie Moore, etc.....and of course would love to view the old, old school fighters.....but not near enough of the modern fighters whom I have their entire career....ie. Jones, Holyfield, Tyson, DLH, etc...or even Whitaker, Hopkins, Mosley, Lopez, blah blah blah....)...makes it easier to have a more solid opinion that's for sure...ha.
"We have wasted HISTORY like a bunch of drunks shooting dice back in the men's crapper of the local bar" - Charles Bukowski
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

bump
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

bump
WarBoxing
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Post by WarBoxing »

Hey bama, can we change our lists or would that just be a big pain for you? After further review, I have a change or two I'd like to make.
"I'm no WarBoxing" - Erison
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

WarBoxing wrote:Hey bama, can we change our lists or would that just be a big pain for you? After further review, I have a change or two I'd like to make.
na go ahead,Ive been able to make it into an easily convertable formula

Although send it to me via PM as well just so i got backup
WarBoxing
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Location: New Orleans

Post by WarBoxing »

FightFanAL wrote:
WarBoxing wrote:Hey bama, can we change our lists or would that just be a big pain for you? After further review, I have a change or two I'd like to make.
na go ahead,Ive been able to make it into an easily convertable formula

Although send it to me via PM as well just so i got backup
Will do. thanks bro.
"I'm no WarBoxing" - Erison
KSTAT124
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Post by KSTAT124 »

I'm glad there was no time limit on when this list had to be submitted.

Finally, here's my top 20 (originally top 4):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Bob Fitzsimmons (my maternal grandfather's favorite fighter)
7. Roberto Duran
8. Benny Leonard
9. Willie Pep
10. Joe Louis
11. Mickey Walker
12. Sam Langford
13. Joe Gans
14. Gene Tunney
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Eder Jofre
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Archie Moore
19. Tommy Ryan
20. Barney Ross

I still have to double-check, and probably triple-check, it and may tweek it a bit in regards to the order. But I am satisfied that there will be no changes in the sense of dropping someone on the list for someone else.
Last edited by KSTAT124 on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:24 pm, edited 9 times in total.
FightFanAL
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Post by FightFanAL »

KSTAT124 wrote:I hope there's no time limit on when this list has to be submitted.

Here's my top 4:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb


At some point, I'll expand on it.

I was going to write an article for the Main Page regarding TTR's new divisional and P4P rankings (through July 18) which were posted last night. I had to put that on hold to post some more weekend results and now I have to update our listings of The Ring's ratings. Then I'll do the article about TTR's new rankings.

When all of that is done, I'll compile the standings for the TTR Challenge and the TTR Supplementary Challenge and post them and then figure out what fights to use this week for those two Challenges and post them.

I don't think I'll be expanding on my GOAT list tonight!
na no time limit, im just trying to get some people involved. good to hear from the master himself though
RASTA666
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Post by RASTA666 »

Image
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RIP SCAPP 12/7/09
KSTAT124
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Post by KSTAT124 »

A work in progress:

I scribbled down some names today and much to my surprise the list contain exactly 16 fighters when I finished. Could those 16, added to Robinson, Armstrong, Ali, and Greb, make up my top 20?

Then I started two other lists- one that included fighters who may or may not push out members of the "16" (that list grew to 14 and now 15) and my "just missed the cut" list containing another 30 fighters, four of whom are still active. I've decided not to include any active fighters so Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Jr., Bernard Hopkins, and Manny Pacquiao are "not eligible" at this point but they've been replaced by nine others who deserve at least "honorable mention".

Here are those lists (in no particular order; that will come later):

the "sweet 16" (who are vying for spots 5 through 20) minus thirteen (Leonard, Fitzsimmons, Duran, Leonard, Pep, Louis, Walker, Langford, Gans, Tunney, Jofre, Moore, and Ross) who have made it into the top 20 (along with Wilde, Charles, and Ryan) (see my earlier post):

Nonpariel Jack Dempsey
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Sandy Saddler

plus 7 (or the "don't they belong in the top 20?" list):

Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Ike Williams
Carlos Ortiz
Nicolino Locche
Tony Canzoneri
Jack Dempsey
Jimmy McLarnin

(Dempsey, O'Brien, Saddler, Hagler, Williams, Ortiz, Locche, Canzoneri, Dempsey, and McLarnin make up #21 through #30 but not necessarily in that order)


And the ever-growing "just missed the cut" or "honorable mention" list (including some names I'm going to have to reconsider, maybe they do belong higher than this):

In alphabetical oder:

Lou Ambers
Sammy Angott
Alexis Arguello
Max Baer
Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Jimmy Bivins
Panama Al Brown
Charley Burley
Miguel Canto
Marcel Cerdan
Antonio "Kid Pambele" Cervantes
Jung-Koo Chang
Julio Cesar Chavez
Kid Chocolate
Joe Choynski
Billy Conn
James J. Corbett
Oscar De La Hoya
George Dixon
Flash Elorde
Tiger Flowers
George Foreman
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Gene Fullmer
Khaosai Galaxy
Kid Gavilan
Tommy Gibbons
Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez
Emile Griffith
Fighting Harada
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Beau Jack
Joe Jeannette
James J. Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Harold Johnson
Stanley Ketchel
Pone Kingpetch
Jake LaMotta
Sonny Liston
Duilio Loi
Ricardo "Finito" Lopez
Rocky Marciano
Lloyd Marshall
Sam McVey
Bob Montgomery
Carlos Monzon
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles
Battling Nelson
Ruben Olivares
Floyd Patterson
Eusebio Pedroza
Pascual Perez
Aaron Pryor
Vicente Saldivar
Salvador Sanchez
Max Schmeling
Michael Spinks
Lew Tendler
Dick Tiger
Felix "Tito" Trinidad
Pancho Villa
Pernell Whitaker
Holman Williams
Harry Wills
Myung-Woo Yuh
Tony Zale
Carlos Zarate


I'm sure there are more who deserve to be on the above list and I'll add them as I continue to try to sort this all out. Again, there's no significance to the order within the first two lists yet- the only thing significant is the makeup of those categories.


First Edits: I've moved 6 fighters from Category #1 into what will be my top 20 at #s 5-10. I've also trimmed Category #2 by 3, moving Gibbons, Monzon, and Ketchel into Category #3 (Honorable Mention) and I added Lou Ambers, Nino Benvenuti, Kid Chocolate, Billy Conn, Flash Elorde, Tiger Flowers, and Eusebio Pedroza to the "Honorable Mention" list.

Additional Edits: If I have Ike Williams "knocking on the door" to be considered for the top 20, why don't I have the other great lightweights of his era on the honorable mention list? Hmmm, OK, Sammy Angott, Beau Jack, and Bob Montgomery have been added......I've now moved Ricardo "Finito" Lopez and Pascual Perez from Category #2 to "Honorable Mention" and added Jung-Koo Chang and Myung-Woo Yuh to that category as well.....I've got to put the consensus greatest flyweight of all-time and the best bantamweight of my lifetime (and possibly of all-time) in the top 20- for now Wilde and Jofre will be #15 and #16 but that's not etched in stone as of yet.....whoa, I realized I didn't have James J. Jeffries or Joe Frazier in any category- I've added them to the Honorable Mentions.....and I added two more, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore, to the top 20

I considered moving Charley Burley up from my Honorable Mention list but, after careful consideration, decided against it. I did decide to add some of Burley's opponents to the Honorable Mention list though- Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall, and Jimmy Bivins.....which means there are still 12 candidates for the last 2 spots on my top 20 list (at least I know who comprises my top 30).

I noticed that three of the greatest junior welterweight champions of all-time, Duilio Loi, Aaron Pryor, and Antonio "Kid Pambele" Cervantes, had not been mentioned.....well, they have now and been added to my "Honorable Mention" list.....two great old-time heavyweights also have been added- James J. Corbett and Joe Choynski.....two other heavyweights, both former champions and the participants in Ring Magazine's 1933 Fight of the Year, Max Baer and Max Schmeling, have also been added to the "HM" list

The longer I look at my Honorable Mention list, the more I notice the absense of deserving fighters which I then add: Sam McVey (sometimes listed as McVea), Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills, Battling Nelson, and Tony Zale.....I'm sure there will be more!

10/6/11- I noticed that three others who belong on the Honorable Mention list were missing- Jake LaMotta, Kid Gavilan, and Felix "Tito" Trinidad. I added them.
Last edited by KSTAT124 on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.
KSTAT124
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Post by KSTAT124 »

And this is the third of the three threads which I think will fit in well in the Old School section.

I'll try, over the next few weeks or so, to complete the project FightFanAL began.

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