On the East Side Boxing Website Dec 16, 2005 there was an article written by Mike Casey titled "Timeless, Indefinable, Incredible: Was Harry Greb the Greatest Fighter Ever?" Here is the article-
16.12.05 - By MIKE CASEY: Some men just look like fighters. They don't have to make a fist, strike a pose, strut around the place or talk the talk. One look into their eyes, one scan of their features, and you know they've got the right stuff. Harry Greb, like the great Stanley Ketchell before him, looked like a fighter all over. The tight eyes, the harshly scraped hair and the lean body told you at a glance that Greb was a man apart even in the toughest sport of all.
Legions of great pretenders have discovered to their disappointment that you cannot buy, steal or fake what is only given to the chosen few. A mean look and a hard attitude won't protect you from a harsh dose of reality if you are not cut from the right cloth. Nor will an intimidating name. New York super-middleweight Michael Corleone has learned that harsh lesson in his eleven-year, 11-23-3 career.
There have been a great many fighters who have tried to imitate Harry Greb and inherit his impregnable armour and fighting heart. Most of them are tucked away and forgotten in boxing's vast A to Z archives with maybe ten or twelve fights on their log.
If Harry Greb had a dozen fights in a year alone, he was going slow. Nicknamed the Human Windmill because of his perpetual motion style, Harry was no less fast and furious in the rate at which he swelled his astonishing ring record. When he was all done, he had jammed 299 fights into the short space of fourteen years, having fought everybody who was somebody in a golden era of teeming talent.
For those interested in the finer details of decimal points, Greb averaged 21.5 fights a year, and only the Grim Reaper finally stopped him in 1926. Boxers of Harry's era had to fight frequently to earn any meaningful money, and winning a world championship didn't necessarily buy them a ticket to a more leisurely lifestyle. The heavyweight champion was just about the only guy who could afford to take a walk on easy street. The difference between the average annual salary of Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey was immense.
A perfect illustration of this fact is that between winning the middleweight championship from Johnny Wilson in 1923 and losing it to Tiger Flowers in 1926, Greb defended his title six times and engaged in a total of fifty-six fights.
Series
As for the list of illustrious fighters he faced, many of them in ongoing series and most of whom he defeated, we can only shake our heads at the sheer breadth and depth of talent. Harry bounced around the weight divisions like a mischievous rubber ball, whipping the cream of his own class, thrashing top quality light-heavyweights and heavyweights and even roughing up Dempsey in their famous sparring sessions of 1921.
Greb defeated George Chip, Al McCoy, Jeff Smith, Mike McTigue, Eddie McGoorty, Tiger Flowers, Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky Jimmy Slattery and Maxie Rosenbloom.
He was two and one over the brilliant Tommy Gibbons, and also split a pair of decisions with Tommy's gifted brother, Mike, the legendary Minnesota ace whose marvellous defensive skills won him the nickname of the St Paul Phantom.
In four out of five meetings with that other master boxer, Tommy Loughran, Greb was the boss.
He twice bested heavyweight contender Bill Brennan and was also too good for one of the greatest light-heavyweights of all in the Hoosier Bearcat, Jack Dillon. Giant killer Jack also specialised in terrorising bigger men, but little ol' Harry was all over him in their two meetings.
In their second match at the Toledo Coliseum in Ohio in 1918, Greb administered a terrific thrashing to Dillon. The local newspaper reported that Harry pounded Jack's nose to a pulp, staggered him and overwhelmed him.*
Greb gave Gene Tunney a brutal beating in their first fight at Madison Square Garden in 1923, so much so that an infuriated Gene retired to his bed with his sore body and applied his formidable intellect to devising a game plan for his revenge.
Tunney was undoubtedly Harry's master in their wonderful five-fight rivalry, though not as comprehensively as the history books suggest. Historians and researchers have lately credited Greb with the newspaper decision in their fourth fight at Cleveland, which would make Gene the three to two winner in their series. After their final scrap, Greb reportedly visited Tunney's dressing room and good-naturedly barked, "I never want to fight you again."
Forever eager to get to the next place and the next thrill, Greb didn't hang around killing time in the early phase of his career either. In 1915, while still serving his boxing apprenticeship, he engaged in successive fights with Billy Miske and the dangerous Jack Blackburn, who would go on to achieve greater fame as the master trainer of Joe Louis.
Even the loss of sight in one eye failed to curb Greb's enthusiasm or dull his ability. Historians disagree on which fight caused the injury, but it is most commonly believed that Harry suffered a detached retina in the first of two vicious fights with Kid Norfolk. Greb kept the injured eye a secret from all but his wife and closest friends, finally consenting to its removal in a private operation in Atlantic City. A perfectly matching glass eye was substituted, attached to the eye muscles by sheep tendons.
However, a further operation later on proved too much for even Harry's great heart. Shortly after his second title match with Tiger Flowers, Greb underwent an operation to remove facial scars sustained in an automobile accident and from his multitude of tough fights. He died on the operating table on October 27, 1926.
Praise
Writers, fans and fellow opponents came to praise Harry Greb when he was alive, and they praised him when he died. Incredibly, nearly eighty years after his passing, Harry's name is still writ large on the boxing landscape.
Many of today's fighters use Greb as the ultimate reference when the talk turns to giving every last drop and fighting to the death. His name is mentioned in reverence in cult TV programmes. The International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO) recently voted him the greatest middleweight of all time. Many fight fans and experts also rate him tops in the pound-for-pound stakes.
The accolades are endless and the conclusion is crystal clear. In the era of five-minute fame, Harry Greb has become an icon for all the ages, a roguish and familiar ghost we are happy to have in our house as a permanent guest. Not because of sentiment, but because he earned the right to be there.
Perhaps the explanation for Greb's enduring and universal appeal really isn't that complex. Even when he was alive and kicking in the roaring twenties, Harry seemed timeless and oddly ethereal. He was rock 'n' roll thirty years before the term was invented, and yet he wasn't. He was too special and too indefinable to be shoe-horned into any era or hitched to any passing trend.
Greb loved to fight and he loved to live. He did both with total conviction and commitment. Once in your life, if you are lucky, you get to brush against such an individual. You can feel the electric and sense the danger, but you know to your frustration that you can never step into that special zone and be that man.
How does a guy who rarely visits a boxing gym beat some of the greatest fighters who ever came down the trail? How does he drive cars at breakneck speed without breaking his neck? How does he drink through the early hours after going fifteen brutal rounds with Mickey Walker and then wrap up the celebrations with a return fight out on the sidewalk? Greb did all of those things.
Other fighters spoke of him in awe. Gene Tunney observed, "Greb could move like a phantom and had ring cunning far beyond estimates made of him in the press."
Such was Tunney's admiration for Harry, he was a pall bearer at Greb's funeral.
Jack Dempsey described Greb as the fastest fighter he ever saw. Irish ace Jimmy McLarnin said, "If you thought I was great, you should have seen Harry Greb."
Flattery
It would be interesting to know how Harry regarded such flattery. Quite possibly, he lapped it up. More probably, he wondered what all the fuss was about.
He certainly had a sense of humour and seemed to admire honesty and candour in others. During some lusty infighting in one of his two wars with Tiger Flowers, Greb suffered the rare experience of being caught off guard. As he was going through his usual repertoire of punching, thumbing and cussing, he was taken aback by Tiger's polite request not to take the Lord's name in vain. "I thought he was kidding," Harry said later, "but I'll be damned if he didn't mean it."
Greb had even more devilish fun with fellow great, Mickey Walker. Mickey, the pugnacious Toy Bulldog, was the reigning welterweight champion when he stepped up to challenge Harry for his crown on July 2, 1925, before a crowd of 50,000 at the Polo Grounds in New York. The two warriors waged one of the greatest fights ever seen at the famous venue, with Greb a commanding winner.
But their rivalry didn't end there. Greb and Walker met up later at the Guinan club, a noted New York nightclub of the time, where they drank champagne and chatted to the glamorous owner and hostess, Texas Guinan. Happy and well oiled by the time they hit the night air at around two or three in the morning, Harry and Mickey began discussing their fight for the first time.
It was then that Mickey put his foot in it, offering the opinion that he would have won the match if Greb hadn't thumbed him. Harry couldn't have that and offered to beat Walker again right where they stood. Greb couldn't wait to get his coat off, but it got stuck around his elbows as he pulled too hard and Walker belted him with a terrific uppercut. Mickey always bragged thereafter that he won their unofficial return.
The two men got lucky. The only person around at that hour was a massive Irish beat cop called Pat Casey, whom Walker described as being as big as Primo Carnera. Familiar with Greb and Walker and their idea of a good night out, Casey waived the incident and told them to get off home.
Walker enjoyed ribbing Greb but always acknowledged Harry's superiority as a fighter, placing him on the gold standard with Ketchell and Dempsey.
Mickey never forgot one incredible incident from the Polo Grounds classic. "Harry could hit you from impossible angles. Once, after he missed a right to my face, he spun all the way around so that his back faced me. I relaxed my guard and waited for him to turn around. But before I knew what was happening, his left was stuck in my mouth. I still don't know how he did it, but he hit me while his hands faced in the opposite direction." **
Saloon
How I wish that I could visit a fighter's saloon bar in heaven (assuming the old gentleman upstairs permits such a facility) and find Greb, Stanley Ketchell and Carlos Monzon sitting at the same table discussing their greatest fights. They have always struck me as spiritual brothers, despite the span of years and circumstances that separated them. They were giants of men who lived and fought with a burning passion and then left us suddenly just as we were beginning to wonder if they were eternal.
Ketchell was shot to death when he was twenty-four. Greb died at thirty-two and Monzon was gone at fifty-two. It is easy to become maudlin about such things and trot out the old Marvin Gaye line about the good dying young.
But in all truth, do we really enjoy watching wild horses grow old?
Postscript
In the Mike Casey All-Time Rankings on my website, in which varying points values are accorded to fighters across 22 different categories, Harry Greb places fifth in both the middleweight and light-heavyweight divisions.
The middleweight rankings are thus: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson 2. Carlos Monzon 3. Tommy Ryan 4. Marvin Hagler 5. Harry Greb 6. Mike Gibbons 7. Stanley Ketchell 8. Sam Langford 9. Marcel Cerdan 10. Mike O'Dowd.
This is some achievement on Harry's part, when one considers that he fought in the no-decision era. Exhaustive research has enabled historians to determine the winners of many of these fights according to original newspaper reports, but the outcome of many others remain a mystery. Since the results cannot be assumed, fighters of Greb's era inevitably lose a few points here and there in any results-based ranking.
There is little doubt that Harry would otherwise rank higher than he does. Was he really the greatest middleweight? Was he the greatest pound-for-pound fighter of all?
What's your opinion? Who are your top middleweights and pound-for-pound masters?
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MIKE CASEY is a boxing journalist and historian, a member of the International Boxing Research Organization and founder and editor of The Grand Slam Premium Boxing Service for boxing historians and fans.
www.grandslampage.net
SOURCES
* Newspaper research by BoxRec
** Stanley Weston, Boxing and Wrestling, October 1954
In the 2002 "80th Anniversary Issue" of Ring Magazine, Greb was declared the 7th greatest fighter in the last 80 years. The ranking was as follows: #1-Sugar Ray Robinson, #2-Henry Armstrong, #3-Muhammad Ali, #4-Joe Louis, #5-Roberto Duran, #6-Willie Pep, #7-Harry Greb.
Professional Record: ------115-8-3 (51) with 183 no-decisions
Years Fought: ------1913-1926
Title held: ------World Middleweight
Defining Moment: ------W15 Gene Tunney, May 23,1922 - Tunney's only pro loss
Other Notable Fights: ------ko1 Gunboat Smith, W15 Tommy Loughran, W15 Johnny Wilson, W15 Mickey Walker, L15 Tiger Flowers
Why He's Ranked Where He's Ranked: ------Nicknamed "The Human Windmill" for his non stop punching....Although middleweight champ, also fought and beat some of the best welterweights, light heavyweights, and heavies of his era without benefit of a true knockout punch...Only stopped twice in 309 pro bouts.
In the April 2001 issue of Ring Magazine, there was an article titled "A New Beginning, A New Middle". This article was about Felix Trinidad entering the Middleweight division. Harry Greb is mentioned twice.
"The peaks are obvious: the Harry Greb-Mickey Walker-Tiger Flowers era in the 20's; the Tony Zale-Rocky Graziano-Jake LaMotta era in the 40's that led right into the Ray Robinson-Gene Fullmer-Carmen Basilio era in the 50's; the Marvin Hagler-Tommy Hearns-Ray Leonard era in the 80's."
"Greb, Robinson, Hagler...Trinidad. The name doesn't sound out of place. The cycle of middleweight glory is about to reach another peak."
In the January 2001 issue of Ring Magazine, there was a piece called "20 Greatest Middleweights of All Time" written by William Dettloff. Harry Greb was selected as the #1 best middleweight of all time.
In the October 2000 issue of Ring Magazine, there was an article titled "The Reel Deal"- how fight films revoltionized the business. In the article is a list of the top ten most sought after fight films.
#1 is Harry Greb vs. Gene Tunney I (Tunneys sole loss).
#2 is Harry Greb vs. Mickey Walker (Greb always spoke of the hot overhead lights made especially for filming the fight).
In the June 2000 issue of Ring Magazine, an article claims these top 3 middleweights would have beaten light-heavyweight Roy Jones: 1. Ray Robinson -- stoppage by 9th . 2. Marvin Hagler -- comes on late for unanimous decision. 3. Harry Greb -- wins decision; Jones would "be glad it was over"
Ring article written by William Dettloff-June 2000 issue of Ring
Let's face it: It's difficult to picture a little white guy who looks like an extra from the cast of The Bowery Boys beating Jones. But there's a reason alot of historians still consider greb one of the two or three best middleweights ever. "The Pittsburgh Windmill" was able to beat, among others, Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, and Mickey walker, and being blind in one eye didn't slow him down one iota. What was the reason? He was nuts. Crazy as a loon. At least in the ring. Crazy and dirty as hell. You couldn't discourage him, you couldn't intimidate him, and you couldn't figure him out. You didn't have time.
Was Greb as talented as Jones? Not on his best day. But he was ferocious enough and fearless enough to completely throw Jones off of his game. It wouldn't matter how many lead right hands Jones bounced off of Greb's face. Greb would grin and launch a two-minute flurry followed by a headbutt and both laces to the face. He'd make Jones fight every minute of every round going backward. The jaw? Greb was stopped twice in more than 300 fights. Jones wouldn't come close and, by the end, he'd be glad it was over. Greb by decision.
On 2/4/00 during ESPN2's Friday Night Fights Max Kellerman mentioned the Greb and Dempsey. Max was asked the question, "Why do you think Jack Dempsey is over-rated?" Max replied, "He fought less frequently than other heavyweights of his time. And won less decisively than Harry Greb against the same opposition."
Sports Ilustrated magazine (issue Dec 27, 1999-Jan 3,2000) listed the top 50 greatest sports figures from each state. Harry Greb was listed as #40 from Pennsylvania. It said "Harry Greb 264-23-12 as boxer from 1913 to '26."
On 10/15/99 Harry Greb was voted top All-Time Middleweight on Monte Cox's website "Cox's Corner". Check out his great website at
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/.
Middleweight Winner: Harry Greb
Record: 105-8-3 183ND (48 Ko's)
Harry Greb-- 83 pts
Ray Robinson--77 pts
Stanley Ketchel--63 pts
Carlos Monzon--59 pts
Marvin Hagler--55 pts
Bob Fitzsimmons--44 pts
Mickey Walker--33 pts
Roy Jones--25 pts
Jake LaMotta--19 pts
Tony Zale--19 pts
Other Middleweights Receiving Votes: Gene Fullmer (11 pts), Dick Tiger (11), Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (8), Marcel Cerdan (7), Charley Burley (6), Ray Leonard (6), NonPareil Jack Dempsey (5), Tiger Flowers (5), Carmen Basilio (4), Kid McCoy (4), Tommy Ryan (3), Nino Benvenuti (2), Mike Gibbons (2), Les Darcy (1), Jack Dillon (1), Rocky Graziano (1).
On 9/3/99 during ESPN2's Friday Night Fights Max Kellerman mentioned the Greb/Dempsey sparring match. Max was asked, "Who is the most over-rated boxer in history?" Max replied, "It pains me to say this because he was why I originally got into boxing, but I have to say Jack Dempsey. Greb had an easy time with him and HE was a middleweight!"
I recieved this e-mail on 11/28/98 about Haslem "Bucky" Phenlen. Bucky is rumored to have been a trainer for Harry Greb.
I am not 100% sure of the spelling of his name. here's the scoop about this "haslem bucky phenlen" person who swore to me he had trained harry greb. i went into this nice old mans house around the 1975? it was in Broward County Florida, in a town called Miramar, west of fort Lauderdale; to get something notarized. i admired his many boxing pictures on the wall. (i was a fan and used to go to all of the fights on Miami beach and i watched ali .. willy pastrano etc.) he had many pix of harry greb, and about 50 other boxers, including henry hank Armstrong, lew jenkins, etc. he told me about the fight with gene tunney. he said he knew angelo dundees dad in new York. he told me he had trained harry greb but it drove him crazy. he said the man just wanted to dance and stay out late. i am almost sure this was in new York. he mentioned an incident in which harry greb was involved in an attempted mugging. (with the key word being "attempted." ) i seem to recall a newspaper clipping where as harry beat the tar out of 4 or 5 muggers? (central park rings a bell.) now here comes the amazing part. i saw a weathered old Miami Herald newspaper clipping that showed Bucky jumping thru his hands at the age of 62! IM guessing he was in his 70's when i met him. i did a tape recorded interview with him, for a possible sport's story; which i probably have lost. (I'll look for it.) now get this. this clipping said that haslem bucky phenlen had gone to saint Joseph's university (philly) and been an all American basketball player and a FOOTBALL player thus the name Bucky. He then joined the army (WW1) and supposedly fought in the famous lost battalion of the Argonne forest. The clipping said he won the congressional medal of honor! he said he had been machine gunned in the legs and had eaten bark! He rolled up his pants and sure enough it looked like 3 bullet hole scars to me. Before the war he told me he had toured the Northeast with HONUS WAGNER's BASKETBALL ALL STAR'S. If it's all true this was one amazing man. The pictures looked old and he didn't seem to be delusional. he called Chris and Angelo Dundee "babies". he said he had gotten into a fight in the ring with harry one day over his lack of dedicated training. he said he didn't lose. the picture on the front of the local section of the Miami Herald showed him jumping thru his hands... he had a leap! i seem to recall the clipping said he was 62! So I'm guessing the clipping was from about 1962. those old clips are microfilmed i would imagine. you might ask the sports editor Edwin pope to help..maybe for a nice lead story. they have a web site at
www.herald.com. i would love to know if this man was the real McCoy.
with warm regards, Mr. Reid M. Millsap
On 11/27/98 ESPN's Friday Night Fights they posted their All time pound for pound ratings. Here was Max Kellerman's list:
1-Sugar Ray Robinson
2- Henry Armstrong
3- Muhammad Ali
4- Harry Greb (105-8-3 48 KO)
5- Sam Langford
6- Pernell Whitaker
7- Roberto Duran
8- Willie Pep
9- Benny Leonard
10- Ezzard Charles
11- Jimmy Wilde
Max Kellerman stated "Greb... the more ya find out about 'em, the more you realize it was HE and not Benny Leonard, who was the greatest fighter of the 20's"
After Max showed his list, Teddy Atlas presented his top all-time pound for pound list:
1- Sugar Ray Robinson
2- Henry Armstrong
3- Muhammad Ali
4- Benny Leonard
5- Sam Langford
6- Harry Greb
7- Mickey Walker
8- Roberto Duran
9- Gene Tunney
10- Carlos Monzon
11- Joe Louis
Teddy Atlas stated "I know alot of guys are gonna complain about me havin Gene Tunney on there, but how can you complain when a guy only lost one out of seventy seven fights, and you know Harry Greb belongs on there....well he beat Harry Greb 3 out of 4."
Max Kellerman replied "....and to Harry Greb, who was a natural middleweight, he lost one. The newspapers gave Greb another decision. All the fights were close and this was a middleweight. I thought Tunney was the third best light-heavy of his era behind Loughran and Greb. I can't rate him in my top ten pound for pound."
Teddy replies " I know, but anyone who losses 1 out of 77 with those great fighters ...man I gotta put 'em on. "
On 10/9/98 in the beginning of ESPN2's Friday Night Fights the announcers mentioned Greb. The announcers were Max Kellerman and Brian Kenny. Roy Jones was going to join them later on in the show, so Max Kellerman compared Roy Jones Jr. to a few boxers (past and present) including Harry Greb. Max's cohost, Brian, then said " Oh, I knew you'd sneak in Harry Greb somewhere." Then he said, "Well, we will be hearing more about Harry Greb in the next couple weeks"
In a '98 addition of.....
ELECTRONIC BOXING MONTHLY'S: BOXING TRIVIA QUIZ!
at -
http://www.boxmag.com/trivia.htm -there was the following quiz question
"His trademark was hitching up his emerald green boxing trunks with his forearms."
Barry McGuigan Johnny Kilbane Ken Buchanan Harry Greb
Answer : Harry Greb. Hitching up his trademark green trunks was about the only break the non-stop puncher Greb ever took during a round.
On the back of the October '98 issue of the Ring Magazine is an ad that uses Harry Greb to help sell proffesional fight gloves. The company that uses it is Ringside. "The professional fight glove has undergone enormous changes since Harry Greb won the middleweight title in 1923. The importance of safety and comfort is as timeless as the ability to out-score and out-punch your opponent."
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Harry Greb Wohlfarth is on the left, his mother Dorothy is on the right.
Former boxer Joe Shannon is in the middle. They are in front of the plaque to harry Greb in the Pennsylvania Boxing Hall of Fame.
Harry Greb Wohlfarth Interview
(Harry's grandson)
I interviewed Harry on July 5, 1998
Background: Harry Greb Wohlfarth's mother is Dorothy (Greb) Wohlfarth. She is pictured on Harry's lap in the "Family Man" photo section. Harry Greb was his grandfather. Dorothy ,his mother,was adopted by Harry Greb's sister Ida after Harry died.
He is a nice person to talk with. The person in the family who knew most about Harry was Ida (Harry's sister) he told me. Ida's husband Elmer helped train Harry while he was still alive. He still has photo's and memorabilia keepsakes about his grandfather. Mr. Wohlfarth still lives in Pennsylvania.
Question #1- What do you know about Miss Naomi Braden? She was shown in the Greb film footage . She said she'd marry harry if he won the Walker fight.
Answer- "Not much is known, but she wasn't liked too much."
Question #2- Do you think any fight footage will ever pop-up?
Answer- "I don't think so. You know that old film disintegrates. I know someone who recently hired a private detective to go to SanFrancisco because he heard a fight film surfaced. It ended up being a false lead."
Question #3- What do you know about Harry's wife Mildred?
Answer- "It's not well known but Mildred was a beauty contestant. Before they were married she won a beauty contest that years later developed into the Miss America Contest. Let's see how it goes....She won the contest when she was 18, she married when she was 19, had mom at 20, then died at 21."
Question #4- You have a sister Suzanne, right?
Answer- "Yeah, Sue, Kay, and Pat."
Question #5- How blind was he? Do you think it really started with the first Kid Norfolk fight, or right before the Tiger Flowers fights at the end of his career?
Answer- "No, he was blind all right. He fought fully blind in his right eye, and half blind in the other. Exactly when it started I don't know but he fought that way for years"
Question #6- Did Harry have an auto accident that brought him to the hospital for surgery on his nose? Do you know anything about any auto accident?
Answer- "Ohhh. I don't know anything about an auto accident. I wish grandma was alive so you could talk to her. She knew the most."
Question #7- What are things you read that are untrue about Harry?
Answer- "He wasn't such a dirty fighter. Alot of people fought that way back then, with the laces and thumbs. You know it wasn't that far removed from bare-knuckled fighting back then. He did what alot of fighters did, the only thing he may have done extra was some kidney punches when the referee couldn't see."
Question #8- Were you interviewed for the book and the documentary?
Answer- "Yes, both."
Question #9- Have you seen my website?
Answer- "No. My daughter has and she's printed out pages for me. You know his name wasn't BERG. That's wrong you know."
Question #10- Do you have anything that you can take photos of or copies of that I can add to the site?
Answer- "Sure. My daughter is coming over in a couple weeks and can takes photo's of some stuff. I even have a picture of mom with the both of them."
Question #11- You mean a photo of Harry, Mildred and Dorothy, all together at the same time? That hasn't ever been published.
Answer- " No, I don't think it has."
Question #12- Do you have any of Pius and Ann Greb, Harry's parents?
Answer- "No, I don't think so."
After a great conversation we exchanged mailing addresses. I'm making a copy of the 5 minute Greb training clip for him, and I'll send that to him, he doesn't have it. He'll try to Xerox some articles and news clippings for me too. He's a great guy, and a normal person to talk to.
written immediately after conversation on 7/5/1998
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In the July '98 issue of KO magazine there was a section titled "50 all-time fantasy match-ups". In it Greb was compared to Stanley Ketchel to see who would have won the bout if they had actually fought.This is what was written:
There is little to choose from between these two. Both were two-fisted, tough-as-nails brawlers who relied on there tenacity and viciousness to overwhelm theor opponents. Of the two, Greb fought the better competition, besting, among others, Jack Dillon, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Mickey Walker, and Gene Tunney.
Ketchel's career was much shorter--he was murdered at the age of 24--and thus so was his resume. The most noteworthy wins came against Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and Billy Papke. And if you're wondering how close Ketchel came to beating Jack Johnson when he floored him with a wild right hand, forget it. That Johnson rose and knocked Ketchel cold immediately upon rising tells you all you need to know.
The real difference is told in the numbers here, and they show Ketchel to be the much harder puncher. "The Michigan Assasin" scored 49 knockouts in 52 wins. Greb, for all his snarling viciousness, won inside the distance only 48 times in 105 victories. So "The Pittsburgh Windmill" was more of a pressure fighter, Ketchel more of a banger.
Ketchel wins, right? Wrong. Look closer at the numbers. Greb was stopped only twice in 299 fights; Ketchel suffered the same number of stoppage losses in one fifth the number of bouts. And when a great chin goes against a great puncher, the chin usually wins. It would here, too. Greb by decision.
Written by William Dettloff