My Linear Heavyweight Rankings
-
marciano1952
- TTR FBL CHAMPION
- Posts: 32375
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:39 pm
- Location: North Carolina
-
KSTAT124
- TTR Rankings & Results Editor
- Posts: 24066
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 pm
- Location: Valley Stream, New York
A couple of historical points-
The character in "Cinderella Man" seemed to be based on a character Max Baer himself had played in "The Harder They Fall" more than on the real-life Max Baer. The character, Buddy Brannen, obliterates Toro Moreno (roughly based on Prima Carnera and played by Mike Lane) in the ring the wat Baer demolished Carnera. Prior to their fight, the Brannen character obnoxiously takes credit for killing a fighter whohad died after fighting Moreno.
That is loosely based on the Baer-Ernie Schaaf-Carnera tragedy. Schaaf, who had once beaten Baer, was badly battered but saved by the final bell the second time they fought. He lost by decision. He would go on to fight Carnera and was KO'ed in the 13th round. He died 4 days later. Some members of the press blamed Scaaaf's death on the beating he received from Baer but that had occurred 6 months earlier and Schaaf had fought 3 tmes after the loss to Baer before he took on Carnera. He lost a decision to "Unknown" Winston, knocked Winston out in a return, and stopped the red-hot Stanley Poreda, who had once outpointed him.
Outside the ring, Baer was a playful type who often poked fun at himself. He had been deeply disturbed when an earlier opponent, Frankie Campbell, died from injuries he suffered in his bout with Baer.
The second point is Sonny Liston did not die from a drug overdose. Nor does it seem he was eliminated by the mob. (Those being the two most popular misconceptions or unfounded theories.)
When Liston was first found lifeless, the police thought he had OD'ed. The autopsy, however, showed heroin in his system but not enough to kill him.
The official finding was that he died from natural causes- that he simply expired. That was based on the official toxicology report which showed that "traces of morphine and codeine were found in body tissues but not in sufficient amounts which could be considered as causing death." The report went on to explain that the morphine and codeine found "normally result from a breakdown of heroin in the body."
The character in "Cinderella Man" seemed to be based on a character Max Baer himself had played in "The Harder They Fall" more than on the real-life Max Baer. The character, Buddy Brannen, obliterates Toro Moreno (roughly based on Prima Carnera and played by Mike Lane) in the ring the wat Baer demolished Carnera. Prior to their fight, the Brannen character obnoxiously takes credit for killing a fighter whohad died after fighting Moreno.
That is loosely based on the Baer-Ernie Schaaf-Carnera tragedy. Schaaf, who had once beaten Baer, was badly battered but saved by the final bell the second time they fought. He lost by decision. He would go on to fight Carnera and was KO'ed in the 13th round. He died 4 days later. Some members of the press blamed Scaaaf's death on the beating he received from Baer but that had occurred 6 months earlier and Schaaf had fought 3 tmes after the loss to Baer before he took on Carnera. He lost a decision to "Unknown" Winston, knocked Winston out in a return, and stopped the red-hot Stanley Poreda, who had once outpointed him.
Outside the ring, Baer was a playful type who often poked fun at himself. He had been deeply disturbed when an earlier opponent, Frankie Campbell, died from injuries he suffered in his bout with Baer.
The second point is Sonny Liston did not die from a drug overdose. Nor does it seem he was eliminated by the mob. (Those being the two most popular misconceptions or unfounded theories.)
When Liston was first found lifeless, the police thought he had OD'ed. The autopsy, however, showed heroin in his system but not enough to kill him.
The official finding was that he died from natural causes- that he simply expired. That was based on the official toxicology report which showed that "traces of morphine and codeine were found in body tissues but not in sufficient amounts which could be considered as causing death." The report went on to explain that the morphine and codeine found "normally result from a breakdown of heroin in the body."
Last edited by KSTAT124 on Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
fightfanatic1
- TTR Donator II
- Posts: 5297
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:52 pm
- Location: Phoenix
-
KSTAT124
- TTR Rankings & Results Editor
- Posts: 24066
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 pm
- Location: Valley Stream, New York
Soon after the coroner's findings were released, I read an article ( a small article in comparison to the one when Liston was first found and it was theorized he OD'ed) in a New York area paper, either Newsday or the Daily News- I don't remember which one, which stated point blank that it was not heroin that killed Sonny- that he had it in his system but only a small not nearly fatal amount.stenchasaurous wrote:I tried to consider a combination of things inlcuding what they did as champ and during their careers. Also, these are only linear champs if you're wondering about some missing names. Interesting stuff on Liston KSTAT. I read "The Devil and Sonny Liston" a few years back, interesting book. Guy really is a bit of an enigma.
Nick Tosches quoted from the toxilogical report in "The Devil and Sonny Liston" but kind of dismissed the findings. The words I quoted in my earlier post came from "The Devil and Sonny Liston"- near the end where Tosches referred to the toxicology report.
If there was a cover-up, it would have had to involve the corner's office in Las Vegas and toxicologists in Los Angeles where the sample tissues had been sent.
Incidentally, a copy of "The Devil and Sonny Liston" was among the prizes sent to TTR Challenges #6's super champion!
-
KSTAT124
- TTR Rankings & Results Editor
- Posts: 24066
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 pm
- Location: Valley Stream, New York
I question a couple of your statements (or conclusions).
The first is:
Patterson's "Resume is pretty thin." ?
1952 Olympic middleweight gold medalist
Youngest man (at the time) to win the heavyweight title
1st man to regain the heavyweight title
Most Notable opponents:
YVON DURELLE- (perennial light heavyweight contender; forever linked with Archie Moore- their first fight was a classic) 1954- W UD 8, 1955- W TKO-5
JOEY MAXIM- (IBHOF, WBHOF; former light heavyweight champion) 1954- highly controversial L UD 8
TOMMY "HURRICANE" JACKSON- 1956- (title eliminator) W SD 12; 1957- (1st title defense; Jackson then the #1 ranked heavyweight contender) W TKO-10
ROY "CUT AND SHOOT" HARRIS- 1958- (ranked #3; 3rd title defense) W TKO-13
INGEMAR JOHANSSON- (IBHOF, WBHOF) 1959- (#1 contender; reigning European champion- 5th title defense) L TKO-3; 1960- title shot- regains title: W KO-5; 1961- 1st title defense of 2nd reign (Johansson ranked #2 behind Sonny Liston) W KO-6
SONNY LISTON- (IBHOF, WBHOF)- 1962- 3rd title defense of 2nd reign (Liston- #1 contender and "uncrowned" champion) L KO-1; 1963- title shot: L KO-1
EDDIE MACHEN- (perennial heavyweight contender; former #1 contender)- 1964- W PTS. 12
GEORGE CHUVALO- (WBHOF; perennial heavyweight contender)- 1965- W UD 12
MUHAMMAD ALI- (IBHOF, WBHOF)- 1965- shot at Ali's world title: L TKO-12; 1972- shot at Ali's NABF title: L TKO-7
HENRY COOPER- (perennial heavyweight contender; reigning British & British Empire champion)- 1966- W KO-4
JERRY QUARRY- (WBHOF; perennial heavyweight contender)- 1967- Draw 10; 1967- (opening round bout of WBA's 8-man elimination tournament to crown a successor to Muhammad Ali) somewhat controversial L MD 12
JIMMY ELLIS (WBHOF)- 1968- shot at Ellis' WBA title: highly controversial L referee's decision 15
OSCAR BONAVENA (WBHOF; perennial heavyweight contender)- 1972- W UD 10
Patterson, 55-8-1 for his career, fought 9 men inducted into the IBHOF and/or the WBHOF. He went 5-8-1 against them including 3 controversial decision defeats. Those numbers could change if Durelle, Machen, and/or Cooper are inducted.
The first is:
Patterson's "Resume is pretty thin." ?
1952 Olympic middleweight gold medalist
Youngest man (at the time) to win the heavyweight title
1st man to regain the heavyweight title
Most Notable opponents:
YVON DURELLE- (perennial light heavyweight contender; forever linked with Archie Moore- their first fight was a classic) 1954- W UD 8, 1955- W TKO-5
JOEY MAXIM- (IBHOF, WBHOF; former light heavyweight champion) 1954- highly controversial L UD 8
TOMMY "HURRICANE" JACKSON- 1956- (title eliminator) W SD 12; 1957- (1st title defense; Jackson then the #1 ranked heavyweight contender) W TKO-10
ROY "CUT AND SHOOT" HARRIS- 1958- (ranked #3; 3rd title defense) W TKO-13
INGEMAR JOHANSSON- (IBHOF, WBHOF) 1959- (#1 contender; reigning European champion- 5th title defense) L TKO-3; 1960- title shot- regains title: W KO-5; 1961- 1st title defense of 2nd reign (Johansson ranked #2 behind Sonny Liston) W KO-6
SONNY LISTON- (IBHOF, WBHOF)- 1962- 3rd title defense of 2nd reign (Liston- #1 contender and "uncrowned" champion) L KO-1; 1963- title shot: L KO-1
EDDIE MACHEN- (perennial heavyweight contender; former #1 contender)- 1964- W PTS. 12
GEORGE CHUVALO- (WBHOF; perennial heavyweight contender)- 1965- W UD 12
MUHAMMAD ALI- (IBHOF, WBHOF)- 1965- shot at Ali's world title: L TKO-12; 1972- shot at Ali's NABF title: L TKO-7
HENRY COOPER- (perennial heavyweight contender; reigning British & British Empire champion)- 1966- W KO-4
JERRY QUARRY- (WBHOF; perennial heavyweight contender)- 1967- Draw 10; 1967- (opening round bout of WBA's 8-man elimination tournament to crown a successor to Muhammad Ali) somewhat controversial L MD 12
JIMMY ELLIS (WBHOF)- 1968- shot at Ellis' WBA title: highly controversial L referee's decision 15
OSCAR BONAVENA (WBHOF; perennial heavyweight contender)- 1972- W UD 10
Patterson, 55-8-1 for his career, fought 9 men inducted into the IBHOF and/or the WBHOF. He went 5-8-1 against them including 3 controversial decision defeats. Those numbers could change if Durelle, Machen, and/or Cooper are inducted.
-
KSTAT124
- TTR Rankings & Results Editor
- Posts: 24066
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 pm
- Location: Valley Stream, New York
The other is that Liston "fought many of the top heavyweights of the day but most of those names faded from collective memories and failed to achieve any lasting greatness."
It would depend on whose "collective" memories are in question. Historians who lived through the era certainly haven't forgotten the fighters Liston beat on the way to the championship. They have not forgotten how he cleaned up the division and earned "uncrowned" champion status long before he finally was able to annex the title from Patterson.
In the early part of his carer, he beat fellow prospect Johnny Summerlin (who would go on to become a top ten contender) and Marty Marshall (2 out of 3 times). Marshall is best remembered for being the first man to defeat Liston but he also fought other top-notchers and once kayoed Bob Satterfield in two rounds.
From 1958 until the time he dethroned Patterson in 1962, Liston racked up win after win over top ten contenders, top prospects, and tough journeymen. Perennial top ten contenders such as Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, and Eddie Machen are hardly forgotten. Williams, in fact, is a WBHOF inductee and the other four could join him (in some cases, posthumously). Valdes, during Marciano's reign, spent 21 months ranked no. 1 without getting a title shot.
Liston also beat future contender Billy Hunter, Bert Whitehurst, then contender Wayne Bethea, former title challenger (and at the time top ten ranked) Roy "Cut and Shoot" Harris, and Albert Westphal (rated in the top 5 by the NBA).
Of course, Liston destroyed Hall of Famer (IBHOF, WBHOF) Patterson twice and lost the title to the then Cassius Clay. After he lost his rematch with Ali (IBHOF, WBHOF), Liston had trouble securing fights with top heavyweights but was able to fight and beat former top ten contenders Roger Rischer and Amos "Big Train" Lincoln, at the time, lower top ten contenders Amos Johnson and Elmer Rush, and future contenders Henry Clark and Chuck Wepner. He bounced back to beat Wepner after suffering only his 4th career loss to top ten ranked Leotis Martin. Martin won the battle but lost the war. He scored a come-from-behind KO over the then 37 (or so) Liston but sustained injuries including a detached retina which ended his career.
It would depend on whose "collective" memories are in question. Historians who lived through the era certainly haven't forgotten the fighters Liston beat on the way to the championship. They have not forgotten how he cleaned up the division and earned "uncrowned" champion status long before he finally was able to annex the title from Patterson.
In the early part of his carer, he beat fellow prospect Johnny Summerlin (who would go on to become a top ten contender) and Marty Marshall (2 out of 3 times). Marshall is best remembered for being the first man to defeat Liston but he also fought other top-notchers and once kayoed Bob Satterfield in two rounds.
From 1958 until the time he dethroned Patterson in 1962, Liston racked up win after win over top ten contenders, top prospects, and tough journeymen. Perennial top ten contenders such as Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Zora Folley, and Eddie Machen are hardly forgotten. Williams, in fact, is a WBHOF inductee and the other four could join him (in some cases, posthumously). Valdes, during Marciano's reign, spent 21 months ranked no. 1 without getting a title shot.
Liston also beat future contender Billy Hunter, Bert Whitehurst, then contender Wayne Bethea, former title challenger (and at the time top ten ranked) Roy "Cut and Shoot" Harris, and Albert Westphal (rated in the top 5 by the NBA).
Of course, Liston destroyed Hall of Famer (IBHOF, WBHOF) Patterson twice and lost the title to the then Cassius Clay. After he lost his rematch with Ali (IBHOF, WBHOF), Liston had trouble securing fights with top heavyweights but was able to fight and beat former top ten contenders Roger Rischer and Amos "Big Train" Lincoln, at the time, lower top ten contenders Amos Johnson and Elmer Rush, and future contenders Henry Clark and Chuck Wepner. He bounced back to beat Wepner after suffering only his 4th career loss to top ten ranked Leotis Martin. Martin won the battle but lost the war. He scored a come-from-behind KO over the then 37 (or so) Liston but sustained injuries including a detached retina which ended his career.
-
KSTAT124
- TTR Rankings & Results Editor
- Posts: 24066
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 pm
- Location: Valley Stream, New York
I wasn't questioning your ratings just the statements that Patterson's resume was "pretty thin" and that Liston's opponents' names have "faded from collective memories and failed to achieve any lasting greatness." I think Floyd accomplished quite a bit and had a pretty impressive resume.
Liston wasn't a great heavyweight champion (only one successful defense) but was a great heavyweight! His pre-title opponents, especially DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Folley, and Machen, gave great substance to his record. All 5 were legitimate, perennial contenders. DeJohn, Machen, and Folley were in their prime when he fought them. Williams, although experienced, was still on the way up when he fought Liston. Valdes, a longtime #1 contender during the Marciano era, faded from the ratings and appeared shot only to surge back as high as #2 in 1958. He had faded a bit again (suffering upset losses to Charley Powell and Alonzo Johnson) but would beat Brian London after his (Valdez') loss to Liston.
Another of Liston's opponents, Roy Harris may be forgotten to an extent but he was unbeaten when he challenged Patterson and over the years beat contenders Bob Baker, Willie Pastrano (the future light heavyweight champion and future IBHOF-WBHOF enshrinee), Willi Besmanoff, and Charley Powell, and an at-the-time inexperienced future contender, the ill-fated Alejandro Lavorante. Harris was 30-1 when he faced the then 28-1 Liston. Sonny stopped him in the 1st round.
A little trivia: Harris went on to become a very successful attorney in Texas.
Liston wasn't a great heavyweight champion (only one successful defense) but was a great heavyweight! His pre-title opponents, especially DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Folley, and Machen, gave great substance to his record. All 5 were legitimate, perennial contenders. DeJohn, Machen, and Folley were in their prime when he fought them. Williams, although experienced, was still on the way up when he fought Liston. Valdes, a longtime #1 contender during the Marciano era, faded from the ratings and appeared shot only to surge back as high as #2 in 1958. He had faded a bit again (suffering upset losses to Charley Powell and Alonzo Johnson) but would beat Brian London after his (Valdez') loss to Liston.
Another of Liston's opponents, Roy Harris may be forgotten to an extent but he was unbeaten when he challenged Patterson and over the years beat contenders Bob Baker, Willie Pastrano (the future light heavyweight champion and future IBHOF-WBHOF enshrinee), Willi Besmanoff, and Charley Powell, and an at-the-time inexperienced future contender, the ill-fated Alejandro Lavorante. Harris was 30-1 when he faced the then 28-1 Liston. Sonny stopped him in the 1st round.
A little trivia: Harris went on to become a very successful attorney in Texas.
-
marciano1952
- TTR FBL CHAMPION
- Posts: 32375
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:39 pm
- Location: North Carolina
Re: My Linear Heavyweight Rankings
[quote="stenchasaurous"]Just wanted my rankings and research up for opinion. I put them on the main board a while back, but I'm throwing them here for posterity and for any thought out opinions. I just want to state from the beginning that only "linear" champions imo are considered, and that in itself is a diffilcult decision/conclusion. The rest from here is original post...
I sat down a couple of weeks ago and decided I wanted to really look through the history of the heavyweight championship and try to decide who I thought really were the greatest champions based on resume, with particular detail to resume as champion. I've now finished my grading, and have almost 12 single spaced typed up pages of resume broken down chronologically by champ. I'm going to try and post the whole thing, but first here's the list. I excluded John L. Sullivan because I found records too spotty to do a good analysis. I did my best to include only who I considered true champions based on the historical data I could find on lineage and politics.
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. James J. Jeffries
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Jack Johnson
8. Jack Dempsey
9. George Foreman
10. Mike Tyson
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Joe Frazier
14. Tommy Burns
15. Gene Tunney
16. Sonny Liston
17. Floyd Patterson
18. James J. Corbett
19. Max Schmeling
20. Bob Fitzsimmons
21. Jack Sharkey
22. Max Baer
23. Riddick Bowe
24. Jess Willard
25. James J. Braddock
26. Jersey Joe Walcott
27. Michael Moorer
28. Michael Spinks
29. James “Buster” Douglas
30. Marvin Hart
31. Primo Carnera
32. Ingemar Johansson
33. Shannon Briggs
34. Leon Spinks
What does linear champion have to do with your list?
It's a great list.
Lennox to low and Holmes to high...,Jack is low also as is Ezzard. I think you have Marc way to high. George to low.
I sat down a couple of weeks ago and decided I wanted to really look through the history of the heavyweight championship and try to decide who I thought really were the greatest champions based on resume, with particular detail to resume as champion. I've now finished my grading, and have almost 12 single spaced typed up pages of resume broken down chronologically by champ. I'm going to try and post the whole thing, but first here's the list. I excluded John L. Sullivan because I found records too spotty to do a good analysis. I did my best to include only who I considered true champions based on the historical data I could find on lineage and politics.
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. James J. Jeffries
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Jack Johnson
8. Jack Dempsey
9. George Foreman
10. Mike Tyson
11. Evander Holyfield
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Joe Frazier
14. Tommy Burns
15. Gene Tunney
16. Sonny Liston
17. Floyd Patterson
18. James J. Corbett
19. Max Schmeling
20. Bob Fitzsimmons
21. Jack Sharkey
22. Max Baer
23. Riddick Bowe
24. Jess Willard
25. James J. Braddock
26. Jersey Joe Walcott
27. Michael Moorer
28. Michael Spinks
29. James “Buster” Douglas
30. Marvin Hart
31. Primo Carnera
32. Ingemar Johansson
33. Shannon Briggs
34. Leon Spinks
What does linear champion have to do with your list?
It's a great list.
Lennox to low and Holmes to high...,Jack is low also as is Ezzard. I think you have Marc way to high. George to low.
RIP SCAPP 12/7/09
-
marciano1952
- TTR FBL CHAMPION
- Posts: 32375
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:39 pm
- Location: North Carolina
Whats wrong with undisputed?marciano1952 wrote:the man who beat the man for the title Lineal=linearRASTA666 wrote:Are you trying to pick a fight? What does linear mean?
A title’s “lineage” is how far back it goes among the recognized champions in a particular division. Let’s look at welterweight: Mayweather beat Baldomir who beat Judah who beat Spinks who beat Mayorga who beat Forrest who beat Mosley who beat De La Hoya
Theirs universal, real, undisputed, one and only, linear, interim, emeritus, WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO,IBO,IBA etc etc.
RIP SCAPP 12/7/09
-
marciano1952
- TTR FBL CHAMPION
- Posts: 32375
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:39 pm
- Location: North Carolina
well up until the 70's I think there was only one title IMO Lineal is is better than holding all the titlesRASTA666 wrote:Whats wrong with undisputed?marciano1952 wrote:the man who beat the man for the title Lineal=linearRASTA666 wrote:Are you trying to pick a fight? What does linear mean?
A title’s “lineage” is how far back it goes among the recognized champions in a particular division. Let’s look at welterweight: Mayweather beat Baldomir who beat Judah who beat Spinks who beat Mayorga who beat Forrest who beat Mosley who beat De La Hoya
Theirs universal, real, undisputed, one and only, linear, interim, emeritus, WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO,IBO,IBA etc etc.
say hopkins is the lineal LTH champ not Dawson or any of the others becaus Hopkins beat Tarver for the title who beat RJJ
“Boxing right now is dying with its superstar Muhammad Ali fighting competitors not worthy to try for his crown.”
Black Belt Magazine, 1976
Black Belt Magazine, 1976
-
KSTAT124
- TTR Rankings & Results Editor
- Posts: 24066
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:22 pm
- Location: Valley Stream, New York
There were other times when there were more than one heavyweight "champion".marciano1952 wrote:well up until the 70's I think there was only one title IMO Lineal is is better than holding all the titlesRASTA666 wrote:Whats wrong with undisputed?marciano1952 wrote: the man who beat the man for the title Lineal=linear
A title’s “lineage” is how far back it goes among the recognized champions in a particular division. Let’s look at welterweight: Mayweather beat Baldomir who beat Judah who beat Spinks who beat Mayorga who beat Forrest who beat Mosley who beat De La Hoya
Theirs universal, real, undisputed, one and only, linear, interim, emeritus, WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO,IBO,IBA etc etc.
say hopkins is the lineal LTH champ not Dawson or any of the others becaus Hopkins beat Tarver for the title who beat RJJ
1. In 1935, the original International Boxing Union recognized George Godfrey as the heavyweight champion.
2. After Joe Louis retired, the original National Boxing Association (which later became the World Boxing Association) recognized the winner of the Ezzard Charles-Jersey Joe Walcott fight while the British Boxing Board of Control recognized the winner of the Lee Savold-Bruce Woodcock bout. After Charles beat the comebacking Louis, he gained Ring Magazine recognition and after Louis beat Savold, the BBBofC recognized Charles as well.
3. The Nevada State Commission recognized the winner of light heavyweight champion Archie Moore's bout with no. 1 heavyweight contender Nino Valdes as the world heavyweight champion in 1955. Moore, who won, would lose to Marciano, 4 months later.
4. The WBA stripped Ali for signing for a rematch with Liston. They recognized the winner of the 1965 Ernie Terrell-Eddie Machen fight as their champion. Ali would "unify" the title in 1967 by beating Terrell.
5. After Ali was stripped for refusing induction into the U. S. military, the WBA held an 8-man elimination tournament (1967-1968), eventually won by Jimmy Ellis. The NYSAC (and some other state commissions) recognized the winner of the 1968 Joe Frazier-Buster Mathis bout. The Ring continued to recognize Ali until he "retired" in 1970 so that the winner of the Frazier-Ellis unification bout would gain full recognition.
As for Hopkins having been the lineal light heavyweight champion, that's according to Ring Magazine. The International Boxing Research Organization and its affiliated Cyber Boxing Zone disagree because they never recognized Jones as the lineal champion.
See:
http://www.the13thround.com/phpBB2/view ... hp?t=29693